As the space industry becomes increasingly commercialized, competitive, and mission-driven, one truth remains universal. Having the right people on the team is mission critical. So we explore what we need for the future workforce with our guests from Viya Space and AstroScale. [Music] Welcome to Team Minus Space Daily, coming at you from Commercial Space Week in Orlando, Florida. I am your host, Maria Varmazis, and I am joined today by two special guests. I'm going to talk to me about the state of the space workforce. But before we get into that, if you could each introduce yourselves, why don't we start here? Hi, I'm Tahara Dawkins. I work for AstroScale US. AstroScale is an on-orbit service company, headquartered in Denver, Colorado. Wonderful, thank you. And hi, I'm Mary Baldino. I am the director of sales and marketing at Viya Space. Viya Space is a space and defense company located in the space coast of Florida focused on our hybrid propulsion. Wonderful, thank you both for joining me today. So you're here at Spacecom to talk about the workforce, which is always a hot topic in our industry. And specifically what your companies are looking for in the workforce and also how you can sort of help bolster the space workforce. So I'm curious to both of you, what is your take on the state of the space workforce at the moment, like the pipeline? Why don't we start with you? So the one thing I'll say is that I think there's a misnomer normal that space has a big problem with recruitment. I don't agree with that. I do think that we have a problem with retention. So the state of the space workforce is, you know, we can get people in, but for some reason we're not keeping them through that mid-level area in life. And in space is aging for that reason. So we have a really heavy on senior leaders in space, but that mid-level is just really hard to keep people in throughout that process. Oh, that's interesting. I want to put a pin in that and get back to that. That's a really interesting idea. What about you, Mary? So I think something very unique that's a challenge for the workforce right now is finding people that match your culture and match the passion. There's, you know, a lot of different companies, and especially as you just brought up with the middle management, sometimes people are adept to environments that they've been in. So as the aerospace and space industry grows and changes, there's new dynamics and new cultures. And it's sometimes hard for somebody who's been trained a certain way to adapt to some of the new technologies and new management styles and cultures. Interesting. So these are two very interesting unique takes. I want to dive into them both. So, Tara, I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that missing middle. I know that we're not going to solve the world's problems on a podcast and be like, "So why do we say the missing middle? That is a hard one, but why don't we attempt it anyway? I'm just curious to get your thoughts on what is up with that?" So I don't know if I can pinpoint it down to one problem. This is why. I think there's a lot of things that are working against each other. One is spaces, a technology industry, and there's a lot of competition. And so the things that space is going through, you know, outside of NASA, space is still a toddler. It's still new and it's still finding its footing. And so when you think of a more mature industry that kind of has the jobs etched out and the career fills and paths, space doesn't necessarily have that. Right, right. So it's hard to keep one people that are motivated. We talked about culture and what that culture is. Space came from a very small industry where the culture was the culture and you had these few people that really love space and they entered it for a shared reason and they stayed in it for that reason. Whereas it's getting so big right now and most of space are small startups, there's a lot more small startups and there are big industrial-based companies. How do you redefine or how do you continue to get people that are, "I'm doing this because I have a true passion versus this is a job for me for right now." And is there space for both to coexist right now, right? I think there absolutely is. And that goes, you know, we talked a lot earlier about defining space jobs. What is a space job? Is it engineers and astronauts or is it much bigger? I argue that it's much bigger and maybe it doesn't need to have a definition because space touches every aspect. So if you think traditional careers fields, we do that in space. We have space artists, we have space authors, we have space policy. I'm a policy person. You have space marketing and communications. So all of these traditional industries for career fields can be touched in space. We need the doctors, we need lawyers, we need all of the above within our own little ecosystem here in space. Absolutely. Yeah. And you actually dovetailed really nicely into the culture discussion, Mary, that I'd love you to also dive. Actually, both of you too, but Mary, since you brought it up first, you got to go first. Because this is a really fascinating point also. So talking about, yeah, tell me more about the culture thing before I start diving into that more. So I guess coming from a small startup, culture was incredibly important. I was one of the, I think, first 10 employees. And now we're just around 100, just a little under 100. So we've seen, I've seen the changes that have happened and the culture shifts and trying to protect that culture. And a culture of innovation, but at the same time collaboration. And having to learn with some of the pains of growing and finding the correct talent and making sure that we keep our priorities straight and keep our people happy. Yeah. And I completely agree with what you were saying. The ecosystem of space has changed so dramatically. Every job has some relation to space jobs at this point. And I think it's really important that you get the passionate. It's not always the most highly educated person. It's the passionate person. And it's not just engineers anymore. Because that was kind of the idea. You were an ashtrat or an engineer when you worked in space. And now it's your HR people, your marketing people, your artists. There is a job for everyone in space. You just have to be passionate. So finding the culture, the company culture that you align to, I think is really important, especially with like retention. And getting people in the door, but also staying there. Yeah. It goes to both the points that you were making about why people leave in the, you know, in mid career. People get frustrated with pace of things in either direction. It's too fast. It's too slow. I mean, there are all sorts of reasons, but like, I'm just, I'm curious if there are any macro trends on that one. Or if that's too broad to say, but I'm curious about trends and culture within the space community, so to speak. Any thoughts on that? I'll say just kind of deptilling off of what Mary said. I've been doing space for over 25 years, but this is my first industry job. And so I've been in government my entire career. I knew, so my last job was at the White House. I knew going in that it had an expiration date as a political appointee. So I started looking day one. I knew that my next step was going to be outside of the government. Yeah. It was important for me to find a culture that would fit for me. Yeah. That would take the, what I've learned in government and, and two things. One, help me expand on that, but also compliment it. Yeah. So where I can use the skills that, that I, that I've already developed, but also learn new skills. But the culture was, that was the hardest part of it because I didn't want to go into an environment. One, I knew I wanted to go small. We're both in small start kind of startup companies around the same number of people were right over 100. They're right under a hundred. Yeah. Yeah. That's a sweet spot there. I knew for me, I did not want to go, for me, it didn't want to go to a bigger company where I'd be lost in the shuffle while I'm trying to learn this, this space industry part of it. So finding the culture, but also finding a, a environment where the employees were genuinely happy and passionate and believed in the mission was extremely important for me. And so that took, that took time. That took research, that took, you know, talking to people. But what I found is that there's a lot of companies that have that, that, that because people in space, like you, you really have to be passionate about doing something that for a lot of us, have never been done before. So it's not something we've seen. It's not something that's, that that road and that pathways is already etched out. And then three, a culture that is inviting to, to, to learn from me as much as I'm going to learn from them. So help me let you know what you need as much as you're going to let me know what I need for fulfillment. So it was the give and take that, that was important. Yeah, absolutely. Anything to add to that, Mary? Yeah. So I think when it comes to the culture, there's, you know, it's so important because technology is booming. There's consistent changes in technology. There's an expansion. Everybody has a niche. Everybody has their own mission statement. And the industry is growing. And we were just talking about how we trade, you know, like sometimes you'll have an employee, they'll switch to another company and you want that retention. You want them to learn things, bring new skillsets. So you also welcome people from the industry. So keeping that education, keeping that culture of collaboration. And keeping that open communication. I think it's really important for the industry as a whole and then applying it within your company and within your leadership is really important. We'll be right back after this quick break. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to go back to this idea of there are so many more jobs that are space jobs than people realize. And so when we start as we should and must broadening that scope, how do we make these jobs attractive to people who aren't space people while also making sure that the culture of these organizations stays the same? I mean, that is an extremely thorny problem. But I mean, for getting a space job for people who are like space nerds, it's an easy sell. But when we have all these different roles that are maybe not non-traditional, what we might people might consider non-traditional, they're going, I'm not sure I really want to go to that. But that's a problem because we need them. So how do we do this? How do we bridge that gap? I think that's how you find the best talent because they have to be passionate. I don't have any engineering background. I do marketing and sales, but I am very passionate about our business and very passionate about our mission. So I don't think you can have one without the other. And that doesn't mean that my passion would align with every other space company. Fortunately, it aligns it via. And I think that's important so that when you go into work every day, you're going in there with the passion, you're going in there with the drive, and you're bringing your skillset. And then you're really excited to enhance your skillset and share it with others. You've heard me say it a couple of times, space people traditionally like to go to space events to talk to space people about space things. The answer to me is we've got to stop that. I make it a point to go to two non-space events every year to talk about space to people that aren't traditionally talking about space. Learn about other industries, whether that's automobile, aviation, whatever, you know, oil, gas, and talk about space and how space touches that industry is important. And so when it comes to our branding, space doesn't brand well outside of NASA. Everyone knows who NASA is, but does anyone know what we actually do on the International Space Station? Yeah. The people know, you know, that we're not doing space just to leave Earth. We're doing it to make life on Earth better. Yeah. You know, and once we get better at branding, what it is, what our passion is, what it is that we're doing in space, I think it will be easier to see yourself in a job that you didn't even know existed. It's easy to dream to be a doctor or a nurse when you turn on the TV, you have TV shows with doctors and nurses and lawyers and even astronauts, but you don't see space lawyers on Earth. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. So it's about getting to the average person, all the opportunities that there are in space, and that comes with branding space and everything that we do and all the wonderful and goodness that it brings to us. Yeah. To everyone and every day to bring that and make it more just normalized. Yeah. And I think it has to go the other way too. You know, we have to spend, space people, we need to spend more time at other events and other networking, but we also need to bring people in. So when you have people in the medical field or the accounting field or hospitality event, bringing them into the space events so that they can see their place so that it enhances the dream. And also it gives a brand new perspective to what our businesses need that we're not going to get in our bubble. I agree. So I think it has to go both ways. I agree. That's a great, I feel like that's a really good call to action for people listening is like to really get outside of the space silo and expand in that way. And I think that that's a great challenge that we should put to people like go do that. Some people don't have access to space either. Yeah. So if you have the access, bring them. Yeah. Bring them with you on the ride and maybe you can incite something that they didn't even know they had. Yeah. That's a great idea. And I know part of the reason you all are speaking here at SpaceCom is to talk about the building that the skilled workforce. And I thought it was really interesting that specifically the word skilled was in there because that that is a really interesting, important addition on top of like the normal discussion that we all have about that. I'm curious if like that distinction is something that requires a different approach thoughts on that. I think so I'll take I'll add a word to it. The skilled technical workforce. Yeah. Which has not been defined is an important factor because it's as mission critical as the stem part of space. There's not it's not an either or it's an and and we need we need both. And until we we realize you know what is a space job is a space job and astronaut. Yes. But it's also the the tractor driver that's bringing the rocket into the on the field. The other panelists on our panel was from blue and I told her I went to Texas and I went into this warehouse and it's where they packed the parachutes that are bringing the councils down right in the space job. Yep. And who would like I would have never thought that so when you try to define space job. The answer is yes that could be a space job to. Yeah. Yeah. So so kind of kind of getting back to one of your other questions earlier on the statistics with skill technical workforce or stem spaces is is an Asian industry. It's 68 percent of space workers for the jobs that we do to find our over 55. Wow. That's huge. And there's no other industry that has these big numbers. Right. Wow. How do we how do we get it again. It's not a problem with with with recruitment. How do we how do we get younger people to stay in this in space. And I think the way to do in that is is to get kind of what Mary was alluding to. Let's get space into these neighborhoods that do not see space every day. So in Florida it's easy. They have all these launches California launches. You know there's space companies but there's you know Southern out Idaho or you know there's these communities that they don't get to see it on a daily basis. And we've got it. We this this this industry have to do a little bit better job purposely going out into these neighborhoods these communities that don't have this kind of access. Yeah. To space and and and that's what that's what we do. We get that that passion that love in early so that it's not a big leap when they're you know in elementary. What do you want to be when you grow up. And you know it's not just you know I want to be a lawyer doctor astronaut. Oh I'm going to be a space lawyer. I'm going to be you know a mathematician on the ISS because you know we're going to be living either here abroad or you know in orbit. Yeah. Yeah. Dream big on that one. So any of the newer companies you know they rely on technology that hasn't been around that long you know 10 20 years so that workforce doesn't have the skill sets. So you've got things like additive manufacturing. You've got AI and cyber things that you have to worry about as a space company but it's not a necessary skill set it wasn't. And now it is. So I think kind of dissecting the space industry so that people can see all the different parts and pieces of you know of what makes it a company. What makes it successful technology is going to be really important so you can train early. Yeah. Because you know things like additive manufacturing that didn't exist metal additive manufacturing. Yeah. That's brand new. That is. And you know you can realize text for that that you don't have people that are 55 years into their career you know looking to do that. So I think it's giving people the opportunity to learn new skills and making it apparent and do the branding that we really do need to do. Yeah. Great call to action there for all of us listening there. I want to make sure you both get the last word anything we miss that you wanted to raise or share with the audience by all means. I think space is for everyone and we welcome you here. Yeah. So space is a place in space for everyone you are welcome you're wanted and more importantly you're needed all the skill sets. I think one of the biggest questions when I do panels like this and we got it twice today is how do I get in. Yeah. And so I like if I if I'm going to leave it's the networking for those of you that are not in space and for those of you that are in space the mentoring to make it known like OK you're doing this now but have you thought about doing something else. Yeah. And on the other side it's the you know if you're if you're new in space you're a young professional go outside of what you're doing talk to someone doing something totally different outside of what you're currently doing and get some advice. What is a day in your life look like. Yeah. What do you do. How do you feel your time. Amazing. Well thank you both so much for sharing your expertise with me. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Peace.
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