Apollo 14th launched on January 31, 1971. Five days later, Ellen Shepard and Edgar Mitchell walked on the moon, while Stuart Rusa, a former U.S. Forest Service smoke jumper, orbited above in the command module. Packed in small containers in Rusa's personal kit were hundreds of tree seeds, part of a joint NASA/USFS project. Upon return to Earth, the seeds were germinated by the Forest Service. Known as the "moon trees," the resulting seedlings were planted throughout the United States and the world. But no one kept track of where they went. So, what happened to all the moon trees? [Music] Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmazes. An email in 1996 alerted Dave Williams of the NASA Space Science Data Coordinated Archive Team about the moon tree project. And since then, Dave has made it his pet project to find out what happened to the moon trees. [Music] My name is Dave Williams. I'm the planetary scientist in charge of the NASA Space Science Data Coordinated Archive, which is NASA's deep archive for spacecraft data. I've been at NASA for over 30 years now, and I have gotten involved in this moon trees thing, sort of as a side light, really not part of my regular job. Normally, I'm restoring old spacecraft data from old missions, the Apollo missions, Pinervenous, things like that, and archiving the data and making it available to scientists. That's really cool. I kind of regret that I'm not asking you more about your actual job as opposed to your site project. Yeah, I just fell into it completely. I mean, I got my degree in geophysics, and that's what I was going to do. And I'm still doing it, but now it's definitely part of the archiving stuff. Well, Dave, thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. And let's start with, like, first, I think many of our listeners will know vaguely what the moon trees are, but can we just start with the real basics for anyone who may not know what we mean? What are the moon trees? Absolutely, Maria. So back in 1971, Apollo 14 flew to the moon. It was the third mission that made it to the moon. It was right after Apollo 13, which, of course, was the mission that failed, and luckily, everyone made it back. So all eyes were kind of on Apollo 14. But one of the astronauts, the command module pilot, who was the one who did not go down to the moon, Stuart Russo, had worked for the Forest Service previously to joining NASA. And as part of that, he decided, along with some of his colleagues at the Forest Service, that he was going to bring tree seeds up with him to orbit the moon. And so he put them in his personal kit. It took about 500 tree seeds that were selected by the Forest Service, took them up inside his own, his personal kit, brought them around the moon, brought them back to Earth, gave them back to the Forest Service. They germinated the trees, and then they sent them all over the country in 1976 for the bicentennial, and they planted them just all over the country. And then it sort of got kind of forgotten. And so, yeah, when I first heard about it, I had never heard about moon trees myself. And it was kind of a fascinating thing. But that is the basic thing. Yes, there are these trees now planted all over the country that flew to the moon in 1971 and are still growing out there. But we don't know where all of them are, which is kind of the... which is an interesting mystery to be solving. It's very interesting. It's been fascinating all these years. I assumed that, oh, well, they took the seeds up, they planted, they checked careful records of where they were planted and everything like that. And it didn't work that way. It didn't work that way for a few reasons. One, it was really a public relations thing. It wasn't really a science experiment. It was definitely a public relations kind of thing. Two, it was between... basically there were three different entities involved, and it got very confusing. So, obviously NASA and then the Forest Service. But then the Forest Service handed these trees out to the seedlings once they'd grown them to various state governments. So, in other words, there was no real connection. And so there was no real systematic record keeping. In other words, they sort of went to the state. Maybe the Forest Service knew that it sent three trees to Montana. But what happened to them after that? If the state didn't keep track of them, the records are gone. And that's what happened for most of them. So somewhere in the communications, records just sort of got lost or the trail got lost. Okay, so that does fill in some pieces for me because I thought it was a science mission. I was thinking, was there thoughts about would the germination be different? Now that the seeds have been dispaced, would the trees look different? Do they look different now that they're mature? I mean, what do we know about them? Well, okay, so it wasn't completely... I mean, they did take that into account. They did try... Actually, there's some funny stories about that too. But they did try to grow... They saved some seeds behind to try to grow control trees to see if there was any difference. No one expected to be a difference. And that's why it really wasn't a science experiment because it would have been amazing if these tree seeds had gone into space for a week basically and come back and been changed. And there were, you know, with the astronaut the whole time. I mean, so what would that have said if there was that much effect from radiation or zero gravity or something on these little seeds? And there's an astronaut sitting in the exact same environment. So they kind of knew that space wasn't going to make an astronaut start glowing or grow tentacles. And so they didn't expect anything to happen to the trees. Yeah, the trees aren't like sparkling or anything like that. No, no, no, no, no. You can't tell them. You really can't tell them apart. There's no way. That is very encouraging. I mean, again, it would make one wonder about are humans in space if that would be the difference. But it is also fascinating to hear that it was a bit of a, you've got this, no, you've got this, no, you've got this. You figure it out kind of a situation with the trees. And that, yeah, people were just kind of like, it's nice, but we're not going to track it. That's kind of funny. I never would have expected that. I know. Well, okay, so there's the other part of that too is, you know, the Apollo program actually ended pretty abruptly. I mean, 14, there was 15, 16, 17, and then they were like, okay, we can't afford it anymore. They had plans for more Apollo missions. So, you know, once it ended, I mean, it's kind of like everyone left the party and went their own ways. And, you know, they lost track of a lot of stuff. In fact, part of my job is still, I'm still looking for some bits and pieces of Apollo data that either documentation or various things that weren't quite saved as well as they should have been. So there is that too. Anyway, they did lose track. Yeah. So how did you find out about the moon trees in general? Because I think I've heard some versions of the story. I'm not sure if it's correct, but involves a Girl Scout. Do I have this right? You tell me about this. My kid's a Girl Scout. So I'm just like, I'm dying to know. Oh, yeah. No, no, no, this is, this is one of the things. If you told me when I started working in NASA that I'd be, you know, this story, I'd be like, what, no, this is, that's not right. Anyway, no. So in 1996, I got an email. Now, now I told you I'm archiving and restoring data from the old missions. And so my, my name was on a lot of pages for the Apollo mission. So I got an email in 1996 from this third grade teacher in Kennelton, Indiana named Joan Goble. And she said their class is doing this project on, on sort of local historic trees. And there was a Girl Scout in the class who said there's, there's a tree at their Girl Scout camp and it has a sign on it. And it says it's a moon tree. And she, Joan said, I don't know anything else about this except someone said it has something to do with the Apollo mission. So I'm like, okay, I never heard of moon trees. But, you know, okay, let me, let me see what I can find out. I asked around, I mean, in 1996, I'm at Goddard Space Flight Center. There's an, there's an awful lot of folks around there, especially at that time who were, you know, it's kind of the old timers who actually do about the Apollo. We're involved in the Apollo program. So I started asking around, I said, oh, we're at these moon trees on Apollo. And I got the best looks. They're like, yeah, sure, Dave. Thanks. You know, I don't know what you're talking about. I never heard of these moon trees. I couldn't find anything. No one, no one knew anything about them. I got on, online, on the, on the web now in 1996, of course, the web was a little. Very rudimentary web. Yes, I remember it well. Yes. Yep. You could find some things. And I found a little bit about it. And then I also contacted the NASA history office and they sent me a few, they had a little file there with a couple of news clippings on the moon tree. So I had enough to kind of piece it together. And I figured, you know, and I found out, okay, so it was Stuart Russo. It was on Apollo 14. He brought these tree seeds. They brought them back. And I got enough of the story. I could tell, I could answer Joan as much as I could. And then it's like, okay, I've done that. I've answered that email. And I thought, but this is such a cool story and no one knows about it. I mean, like I said, people I talked to, even who were around at Apollo, didn't know about this. So I'm like, well, I just, I hate this to get lost. I have these web pages about the Apollo missions. I said, I'm going to stuff it in there. It doesn't belong to the science archiving, but you know, we had some, we have some latitude to do, you know, public outreach, that sort of thing. So, so I made up some pages. I made up some pages about the moon trees and what little I knew. I should say pages, probably one page. I fit everything I knew on one, one page. And I had about six trees, I think at that point that from various news clippings and what I found online. So I put those, the list of these six trees on there. And I put a note at the bottom. I said, Hey, if you know about a new moon tree, here's my email, please, please let me know about it. And I started getting emails. Oh, we've got a tree in our local park. It has this plaque. I never knew what this was. It's a, it says it's a moon tree and it was planted in the bicentennial in 1976. And I started getting all these messages. People send me pictures. People with, you know, some people sent stories about they remembered the moon tree being planted or, you know, things like that. Newspaper clippings. So I started, it started coming together. And then I started hearing from some people stumbled across it from the Forest Service. And I started from people who actually worked on it. And I got from them. And that I actually heard. Now Stuart Russo had passed away in 1994. So just before this, but I actually started getting emails from his family. Oh, wow. And then I could, so that, yeah, that was amazing. I remember the first one I got from his son, Jack. And he said, Oh, this is, I just took my daughters to see the moon tree. And this is, he said, this is very special to me. You see, I'm Stuart Russo's son. I was like, Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. A connection to his father. Oh, that's really sweet. Absolutely. Right. So, so anyway, I got, I got a lot of the background from, you know, the Forest Service people, Stan Krugman and these guys, and I got stuff from Stuart Russo's family. And the story really started coming together. And yeah, now I've, you know, it's a hundred and something trees there that people have sent me information and pictures about. And yeah, it's been, so it's been kind of amazing. It just kind of blew up. [Music] We'll be right back after this quick break. [Music] So it's just sort of been like on, on simmer. I mean, you've got your, your, your job that you're doing at NASA. And this is sort of like a little side pet project, you know, which I love. I love this so much. Before we were chatting, I was looking at the list and I was trying to figure out if there's one near me. Because I, in my head, I'm going, I'm pretty sure I've seen something like a plaque saying, "Moon Tree." But where would I have seen that? And I only see one in Massachusetts right now. That's where I'm at. But I'm just like, it's not far from me. I should go check it out. See how it's doing. Now I'm really curious. Yeah, the Holliston police station one, which is, it was another, I mean, and there's so many funny stories related to these things too that, that I hear. But, yeah, you're right. I mean, I am, I mean, I have my job, right? They do encourage us at NASA to do, you know, public outreach, educational outreach, whatever. And so, so I am allowed, you know, not to do that. Oh yeah, no, I wasn't trying to say that at all. You know, I should do this. You know, I know that, I know that. I know, I got you. Yeah, I love that. I do, you know, I do have not enough of my time. I could, I could really spend almost full time on this sometimes I feel like. I was going to say, quick back of the napkin math. A lot of them are still status unknown. Like we, so if there was 500 seeds, assuming all 500 germinated only, or did I do that math right? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding. So how, no, no, no, no. Well, there's, there's more of the story. Oh, and I knew you're somewhat limited in your time. But well, when they first came back, the 500 seeds, when they first came back, NASA tried to do that. NASA tried to plant, but they planted about half of them. Well, what happened was actually even before that, when they came back, they tried to decontaminate them. They decontaminate everything and came off Apollo. Now, Apollo 14 was actually the last one they did that for. And then they said, you know what, there's nothing on the moon we have to worry about. But the seeds got thrown into a decontamination chamber. And part of it was they, they put them under a vacuum. Well, the seeds were in these little plastic bags. And the, and for some reason they had opened up the canister before they put it in there. So the bags all burst. So the seeds flew all over the chamber. Oh my God. Right. And these were, yes. And these were explosively exposed to a vacuum. So no one knew what was going to happen. Well, I mean, no one, who wouldn't do that? You know, no one's done experiments with tree seeds that I know of to just, you know, explosively expose them to a vacuum. I mean, but no one knew if they survived. Yeah, that's right. So, so no one knew if they survived, but Stan Krugman went and said, just sweep them up and give them to me. Now these seeds, 500 in this little, they're teeny, teeny things. He went through all of them and sorted them. He sorted out the redwoods. He sorted out the Douglas fir seeds. And then they germinated. They tried to germinate a whole bunch of them to make sure they were okay. Well, they did grow, but unfortunately at NASA, they really didn't have the facilities to keep them alive. So after about a year, they died. So about half, roughly half. I mean, I don't know how many, no one, I haven't been able to find it, but a lot of them died. And they said, and the far service, the NASA said, Hey, you know, NASA said, we can't do this. And the far service is given to us. So they sent the rest of the seeds to the far service. And then they, they, the far service germinated and grew them. So there's, there's some good records, like for example, for the redwoods, there's really good records. And I haven't been able to find records for some of the other ones. So I don't know exactly how many, but there's at least, I would, I would guess at least a few hundred got sent out to the various states and stuff. They were trying to send out at least three to every state or almost every state. They want to grow in some places. But. So I was going to say, like the list is very impressive. I imagine there's still some number that are out there that you're looking for. Do you have any sense of how many you still need to find? No, I've no sense at all because, well, okay, they're dying now. I mean, they're 50 years old. So they are, they are, they are dying. I have no idea how many sort of died at a young age. And then a lot of the trees, if they're not marked, I don't think they could ever be found. I mean, you know, maybe, maybe someone, everyone said a while, someone said to me, so like an old news clipping or, you know, something that indicates that there might be a tree somewhere. But I think there may, you know, there may be a few more to be found. I hope so. You know, but, but I think there's going to be a lot that are out there that we're never going to know about because they've died, they were never marked or whatever. Yeah. Well, in, in case, yeah, it's a little sad. But at the same time, the fact that you've been able to catalog the ones that you've been able to find, that I think is really remarkable. And especially now that I'm thinking about Artemis, have you had any input on how folks are tracking the new generation of moon trees, by the way? I mean, hopefully they won't do the same thing all over again. Right. Like not directly. I've talked about it. I think they are keeping very systematic records. I think they learned, you know, from this experience and also, yeah, I'm pretty sure that that's, that's cool. I'm not, I'm not directly involved with that. I've been, you know, I've talked to them on and off over, over time, but I'm not because this is plenty for me. I get it. I totally get it. No, no, I get that. I just, I was just thinking if there's anyone to speak to about the polymoon trees, you are the guy. So I mean, I love this. I will make sure that in our podcast show notes that we have the website. So if somebody knows something about a moon tree that maybe you don't know about, we'll get the word, we'll help get the word out. This happens. Now this happens, you know, if there's an article in a magazine or a newspaper or, or there's some, you know, some sort of interview somewhere. I will get a little spike sometimes in, you know, people's, you know, just getting information and stuff. So yeah, yeah, that's really great. Definitely could help. Oh, well, Dave, is there anything else you wanted to share with our audience today? I know I've taken up a ton of your time, but I've, I've loved learning about this. So thank you so much. Oh, oh, geez. No, I always love talking about the moon tree. When I first put up the webpage and I put up my six trees and I started hearing from people and I said, oh, okay, there's another tree and here's another tree. And I started adding to it. I was probably up for maybe six months or so. And I got a call from someone at Goddard and they said, why don't you have the Goddard moon tree on your page? And I said, there's a Goddard moon tree. So, so, you know, not the world's greatest detective. So I am sure enough there is there is a there is a tree at the visitor center, a moon tree, first generation moon tree that was planted at Goddard. And it does have a little sign. Now, it is off to the side. It is not along a path. There's no way to get to it unless you kind of walk across the grass. So if you noticed it, and obviously at least someone did, noticed it and walked across to see what it said. Yeah, there's a sign and it said the moon tree and it was planted and it went on Apollo 14. But that was that was too funny. I'm like, okay, great. I'm the world's foremost expert on moon trees except for the one that's, you know, Literally in your backyard. Well, I'm glad that one is that I can verify indeed it is there. I see it on the list. That's great. Well, you never know. There might be one that someone has been walking by and they go, oh, moon tree, who knows what that means. And now they'll know that someone's looking for it. I'm always hoping and I have a few if you look on the list to that that are sort of status unknown because I've gotten either newspaper clipping or information from some archive, an intern at the New York State Archives a couple of years ago. Just got interested in this and found a whole bunch of stuff at the archives and sent it to me a bunch of. Yeah, it was great. I mean, he just sort of decided to always do this, you know, as part of his internship or something and he found a bunch of the details. So there's like they were like supposedly for three sent to New York State. But I can't find evidence of any of them. But there's all these letters about it. They were, you know, the seedlings were shipped there and they had these plants to plant them here and there and the other thing. And then that and that's it. I can't find another thing, which is, you know, not a typical of what happens with these things. The trail just goes cold. Huh. Well, maybe some of our New Yorker listeners can if they know anything. Yeah, I'm looking. I'm like, all of them are status unknown. That's interesting. Well, one of them is a buffalo. I go to Buffalo. I have a friend in Buffalo. I will ask. I'll be like, hey, you're around. Can you go check it out? You never know. If I find out anything, I will definitely let you know because I have a friend in Buffalo. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yep. Yep. Yep. Now I heard about, I heard not too long ago, someone sent me a clipping about one in Maryland. And so I went to see and I couldn't find any sycamores where it was supposed to be. It was supposedly, you know, supposedly a sycamore was planted there. Couldn't find any sycamores there. But I did get in touch with someone and I'm hoping to maybe get a little more information about that. So, yeah, yeah, it's still, it's still ongoing stuff. That's fascinating. All right. Well, I hope we can help a little bit. But no matter what Dave, this is one of my favorite stories that I've ever heard while doing this job. Honestly, I was also an avid gardener. I just, this is just everything for me. I love this story and I love that you are working on tracking these down. I think this is just wonderful. And yeah, especially now as I'm thinking of Artemis and the next generation of moon trees, I hope we won't make it so difficult for folks in the future to keep track of it. But it is the journey. It's much fun though, right? Right. Exactly. It is the journey. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for telling me about the Apollo moon trees. I really appreciate it. [Music] That's it for Team Ina's Deep Space, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. T-Minus Deep Space is produced by Alice Caruth. Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Iben. Our executive editor is Brandon Karp. Simone Petrella is our president. Peter Kilpie is our publisher. And I'm your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. [Music] [Music] (gentle music)
