If you've ever been in a large city at night, there's a good chance that you've looked up and struggled to see a star in the sky. So I'm pretty sure you'd be surprised to hear that one of the busiest cities in the world has a thriving astronomy group showing stars and planets from the sidewalk. Well, where there's a will, there's a way. [Music] Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmazes. And our guest today is astronomer Kat Troche. And she turned her hobby in amateur astronomy into a passion project to get more people in inner cities to look up to the skies. Kat is a sidewalk astronomer in New York, and she recently embarked on an astronomer's dream trip, visiting the observatories and dark skies of Chile. My name is Kat Troche. I am an amateur astronomer based out of New York City. I am the administrator for NASA Night Sky Network. We are operated through the Astronomical Society of the Pacific. I am also a NASA Solar System ambassador. And I am the vice president of operations for the Amateur Astronomers Association. We were founded in 1927 in New York City with the sole purpose of educating the public through astronomy. That was a fantastic introduction. Thank you, Kat. And thank you so much for joining me. So it's just like two years ago, we met at a NASA social, and it was awesome. Like we've stayed in contact since then, and that's how I found out about some of the amazing things you've been doing since then also. And one of the things I love seeing when you post about it on Instagram is like the outreach work that you do when you just go to a park with your telescopes and you blow people's minds. All right, tell me about that because I love that. So I started in astronomy in 2010 by accident. I was leaving work and at the time, my mental health wasn't great. I was in a kind of a bad place. My marriage was kind of falling apart. And I was just doing work home, work home, and I really felt like I needed an outlet. It just so happened that I was walking through Central Park and I saw folks setting up telescopes in sheet meadow. And I hung around because I was just, you know, being nosy, honestly, but I really wanted to see what was going on. And the folks that I met that night were super nice. And super accommodating and answered my million and one questions. And I ended up joining that club and that was the Amateur Astronomers Association. So fast forward 14 years. I have been with them doing sidewalk astronomy throughout the five boroughs of New York. So basically what that constitutes is I take one of my telescopes, I go outside, I pop it down and anyone that's walking past can have a free look at whatever we're looking at. So if we're looking at the moon, if we're looking at Jupiter, if we're looking at Saturn, if we're looking at the Orion Nebula, some of the larger, brighter objects in New York City, because I'm sure your listeners are going to say, well, you can't do stargazing in New York City. And yes, you can. It's not impossible. It's just challenging. If you aim at the brighter objects and the larger objects, you'll be able to see plenty. But all that said, what we try to do and what I try to do is anyone that just happens to be passing by can experience this in a New York minute, this wonder of the universe, whether it is we're looking at the rings of Saturn or maybe we're looking at Epsilon Lyrae and we're seeing double stars, quadruple stars, really. We want to give that to people. And it's just a fun, safe activity that everyone can enjoy. And what's awesome about astronomy in general, especially if you're just doing observational astronomy, regardless of where you are in life, whether you're doing well for yourself or things are just not going that great, everyone is equal when they're looking through a telescope. Everyone has that sense of awe. Everyone has that sense of wonder. The playing field is so level for everyone in that moment. And I think there's something beautiful about that because we can all revel in the beauty of whatever it is we're looking at through the telescope. And then we can also appreciate how things are around us in a small way because of how small and insignificant we are overall. So tell me about those times when you've blown people's minds. I'm sure people who maybe are walking home from work or kids just out and about, not expecting to see, especially in the middle of New York, where it's not as easy to see things. Tell me about that. I don't know which part is more satisfying, the part where people look through and they see it and they're just like, wow, like their minds are blown. Or the part where sometimes people have a hard time kind of looking through the eyepiece. Maybe their head is angled wrong or they're just looking with their eye in the wrong direction. And then they finally see it and they have that aha moment. And then it's the shock and awe. It's just like, oh my goodness, this is incredible. Or sometimes my favorite, of course, is when you get an expletive. And they're just like, holy crap. That's I always mentally tally those because when I get one of those, I feel super accomplished because then it's like, okay, I know that I really blew your mind. It's a genuine reaction. Yes, it is. It is such a genuine reaction. And so I almost envy them in a sense because I miss that first time of like, wow, like I'm seeing this for the first time. So it's like, man, I wish I could be you in this moment. Like I wish I could see this for the first time again. But I love that I'm able to give that to people. So I'm kind of experiencing it through them. It's sort of like, you know, living vicariously over and over and over again, which is nice. It's and you know, and it's it's really fun to sometimes set up one of my favorite places to set up to be honest is outside of a train station or out or like right at a bus stop because you're going to always have somebody who's coming and going who may not expect it. And if they're willing to stop for a few minutes, they are more than welcome to look through. Sometimes people will look through, they'll leave and then they'll come back with more people. So like look through the telescope again. And I'm totally fine with that. I love that. But it's those unexpected moments of, you know, you're just trying to get home from work or, you know, school or whatever. And seeing this telescope being curious, but not really knowing how to approach the one of the questions I always get, is it free? Of course, it's free. Everything we do with sidewalk astronomy in New York City is free, by the way, I just want to point that out. It's all volunteer, operated and run. And so we all take our time to just go outside with telescopes and give this to people all over the five boroughs. So that said, I love letting people experience that for the first time. And then it's just something that, you know, might break, that might make the difference in someone's day, honestly. Yeah, that just tells you so much right there. You also said something I think is so interesting about seeing stuff for the first time. And I wonder if that feeling is sort of like why a lot of astronomers sort of chase that maybe through their career to find like a new thing for the first time. I imagine it would be. Yeah, I mean, it's, you have some folks that are always looking for the next thing. And then you have a lot of folks that are happy to return to different objects to study them better. I kind of fall more on that. I fall more in the latter portion of that. I don't, if I find something new or if I happen to see something new, that's great. But I'm not, I'm not chasing, I'm not chasing things down. I'm always happy to return to, you know, the same thing I've looked at over and over and over again, because you're always going to notice little things here and there different. So the moon is a good example of this. As the moon waxes and wanes, you're able to see better crater definition throughout the month. And you can't possibly look at all of the craters all at once. So every night for months at a time, you could look at individual craters and study them as the light moves across the moon. And so I think that, I think that that's something that I probably, I would definitely say, I'm not really looking for the next thing. I'm always coming back to the same things and seeing things in a different light. Well, if it was good enough for Galileo. Exactly. You went on a epic trip this past summer, although it was winter for them. I guess there was this other hemisphere. All right. Without getting ahead of myself, can you set up the, tell me about how you heard about this trip, like where you, where you went the whole shipping? So the trip is, or rather the organization is the astronomy in Chile Educator Ambassadors Program. And this is a collaboration between Associated Universities, Inc. or AUI, and the Association of Universities for Research in Astronomy, and that's AURA. This is a NSF, an NSF sponsored expedition from wherever you happen to live down to Chile to visit some of the observatories that are down there. So the larger observatories like CTIO, Gemini, the Vera Rubin when it finally opens, and ALMA, which is the radio telescopes that they have in San Pedro. And so this was, this was extremely spontaneous of me. I hadn't heard of this program until I saw the post shared by a friend and a colleague on Facebook. And I ended up, you know, I just clicked the link and I read a little bit about it. And I was super into it. And a few months prior to me even submitting this application, I was out doing a stargazing session in the Bronx. And we, you know, I was talking with some folks about, I think we were looking at, I think we're looking at Saturn. And we ended up having a whole conversation about like, oh, if you could go stargazing anywhere, where would you go? And I said, oh, I'd go to Chile. Absolutely. It's some of the, some of the best skies in the world. Like that's, you'd get southern skies. So you would be completely turned upside down. Like you wouldn't know where to look for, you'd just be completely immersed. But also the light pollution that they have down there is really regulated. And so they, they work to protect their dark skies because it's part of their culture. And so off the bat, like that would be, that's the easiest answer, Chile, no question. And so then fast forward a few months. And then I ended up seeing this post and I said, okay, let me click on this link and I'll read a little about it. And, and I kind of hemmed and hawed about it. And I said, you know what, the worst they could do is say no. And so I ended up applying. And it was a, it was, you know, just like a job, you fill it out. You tell them things about yourself about, you know, why do you want to come? You know, why do you want to be part of the program? What do you hope to get out of it? But more importantly, what do you plan to do with the knowledge that you gain when you're down there once you get home? So it was three in the morning and I'm sitting there and I'm just typing all of this out. And I submitted it and I said, all right, and I went to sleep. And that was in March of 2023. And then by May of 2023, I got the acceptance letter via email. And, and then I said, uh-oh, I guess I'm going to Chile at the time. I did not have a passport. I have never left the country. Oh, you had some work to do. Yeah. And fast forward, fast forward nearly a year later. And we left on July 4th to get down to Santiago by July 5th because that's when we were all meeting up. And so when you go through this application process, it is the past cohorts, the past people that have gone through the program that are actually grading your application, which is really cool. Oh. Yeah. So you're being, you're ultimately being judged by your peers. It's not going through. It's, you know, they have their own grading system, but it's not going through, um, like, uh, like an AI or anything like that. It's going through actual people that will read and discuss your applications. They will read and discuss the merits of either accepting or rejecting you or waitlisting you. And so I'm very lucky that I was able to get in. And, um, before we get down there, we have a few meetings online. Because we're coming from all over. So some of us are in Texas, some of us are in Massachusetts. One, uh, one woman is in Taiwan. And so we are really coming from all over the place. And so, you know, we get a chance to, we get a chance to meet with each other kind of virtually, um, and get to know each other a little bit before we go down because, you know, you're not really going in sight unseen. Um, but when you get there, these are the people you're going to spend. 10 days with, I have to admit, um, I could not have been luckier. And I will say this until the day I die to meet. The best nine people that I have ever encountered in life. They are absolutely fantastic. We still talk to this day, like we're in a group chat and we share each other, you know, we're sharing jokes and memes with each other. We're keeping each other up to date about what we have going on in life. And I can't tell you, I, I never would have expected to gel so well with so many people over such a short period of time. We'll be right back. Well, you had that common interest that brought you there. So that makes a lot of sense, that passion for dark skies, astronomy, observ, observation observatories, I would imagine also. I mean, you're, you were at like the best, that's like everybody's bucket list. You, you did it. Um, which I'm like, I'm so jealous, but happy for you. It was, it was absolutely incredible. Um, if, if people are able to, I absolutely recommend applying for the program. Again, the worst they can do is tell you no. Um, but if you are passionate about astronomy and passionate about education, and if you have a goal of disseminating these things to an audience, um, then this is the program for you 100%. I don't, I don't regret a single thing. Um, even when, uh, even when I ended up getting altitude sickness, um, which hit me pretty hard when we got to Alma, because you're starting off in Santiago. Santiago is about 1800 feet. I have always lived at sea level and New York City is about 44 feet above sea level. So that is what my body is used to. Now that said, um, you're flying into Santiago straight out of the gate. Like you are hitting the ground running. We're there for about a day and a half. And after that, we start, um, we start on our first real, you know, destination, which is to La Serena because we are traveling to an observatory. Um, it's sort of like, um, it's sort of like an observatory slash nature preserve, um, called Alpha Aldea. And so they do a lot of stargazing programs, but they also do a lot of ecology programs to teach about farming and how to take care of the land. And yeah, it's great. So, um, so you get there. Um, and so now you're going from the 1800 feet to about 4,300 feet, which isn't, it's still not bad, but it's a big jump. You're going to feel that for sure. You feel it a little bit. You feel it. Yeah. And so you're there for an evening, just an evening. And then from there, you're, uh, taking the trip where you'll be there for two nights. You're taking the trip to CTIO and Gemini. And so, um, you first drive into Gemini because that's going to be a very short visit because you're doing active astronomy. You're going to visit the Vera Rubin, but that's still under construction. So you're not allowed to go in, but that's okay. But you've gone from 4,300 feet. You saw it though. So you've gone from 4,300 feet to 8,500 feet in the span of a few hours. You are definitely feeling that. Oh my God. You're definitely feeling it. You're absolutely feeling it. And so then you drive down a little bit because now you're going to stay at CTIO. CTIO sits comfortable at about 7,800 feet. And so that's where you will be for a few days. So your, your body gets a chance to acclimate. You'll be there for about two and a half days. And that's where you're going to do a bulk of your stargazing because the, the skies are just again, unparalleled. Um, you're going to see the core of our galaxy. Um, you, if you have a camera, um, you're going to take some of the best photos of your life. And if you have anything, you want to apply to this now, just for that. I'm just like, I wanted to, you know, it's, and, and I'm not even, I haven't even gotten into, because I'm really doing just kind of a high level review. I haven't even gotten into the fact that you'll get to see the telescopes. You're good to, you'll get to go into the observatories and see the telescopes in motion. So you're seeing the telescope at Gemini. You're seeing the Blanco telescope at CTIO. You're going to see the smaller telescopes on what they call the mushroom farm, which is a bunch of little observatories clustered around the big Blanco telescope. So you'll, you'll see all of these instruments. You'll learn about them. You'll talk to the scientists that work and live there. So you get to Elmo and you get to tour the facility where all the science happens, not necessarily the antenna, but you get to tour the facility. You get to see how it is that they make their, you know, their measurements and, and it's really cool. It's a lot of fun. You do get to see where they repair some of the satellites and your end. We were able to, we were able to take pictures with some of them that were just kind of in the yard, waiting to be brought back up to the high side. Now you have to pass a physical, you have to pass, it's, it's just a really quick. They're going to check your oxygen. They're going to check your blood pressure. And if you, if your oxygen is really low and your blood pressure is really high, you are absolutely not going to make it up to the high side. The high side is 16,000 feet. Now they give you supplemental oxygen that you have to wear. It's mandatory. So you're not going up there and you know, you're not expected to breathe. You will have a backpack as they're driving you to the high side. And when you get into the facility, after you're done looking at all of the antenna outside, when you get into the facility, it's oxygenated as well. So you will be able, you'll have oxygen, but you first have to fast that, you have to pass that physical. And I did not. My oxygen level was a little low. It was around 85%. And my blood pressure, let me see if I can remember this. I think it was like 190 over like 110 or something. Oh my, yeah. Yeah. And so, and so the doctors, and these are actual doctors, because they have medical facilities on site, they looked at me and I saw the machine and I just laughed because I already knew that there was no way I was going to make it. I was feeling awful. I was super lethargic and I was like, oh, there's no way. And so they made me lay down on a gurney for a little while to try to get my blood pressure to come back down. And it was still really high when they did a second run. And they were like, yeah, we can't let you up. And I was like, I said, you know what? I completely understand. Thank you for your time. And so I went back into the facility and even some of the most fit people can sometimes just have high blood pressure and they won't let you up. And it's for your safety, it's for their safety. But when I tell you, honestly, I didn't even care. I already did what I came to do. I wanted to get to dark skies. I wanted to see the telescopes at these observatories. Going to the high side at Alma was really just the cherry on top. But I didn't necessarily need the cherry, you know, because I got to hang out. You still have a whole ice cream sundae. Exactly. Exactly. I am very full. So I got to hang out in the facility with another member of my cohort who also didn't, he didn't pass. And so it was just the two of us hanging out with some of the Alma scientists. And we basically got a personalized tour while everyone else went up to the high side. And when I tell you, they picked one hell of a day to go to the high side because with the wind chill, it was negative 30 degrees. Pass. Hard pass. And so we were nice and, you know, nice and comfortable. Cozy, right? We're nice and comfortable. It was, you know, it was cool. It was, you know, it wasn't cold, but it was on the cooler side because again, it is July in Chile. So it's winter technically, but you're also, you're so high up that it's, you know, it's colder than it would be then if you were at sea level, you know. And so, so we were, we were totally fine. We got a personalized tour one on one session where we got to see some of the, some of the antennas that were being repaired. And we got to take photos and, and, you know, we, it was great. It was fantastic. I was going to say, that's not, that's not a bad consolation prize. Right. All things told. If I was in your shoes, I imagine I would not sleep ever. I would probably just be up all night staring at the sky. So what did you, what's that your experience? I mean, I would just be soaking all of that in as much as I possibly could. I was, when my body finally said, all right, it's time to go to sleep. I was very upset. I was very upset because I really did want to stay up as much as I could. But I knew that we were, every morning it's like, all right, you're getting up at six a.m. Because you have to hit the ground running because you're going to, you're either traveling or you're going to, you're going on a tour for a part of the facility. So you, you know, you can, you can sacrifice sleep or you could just go to bed and, you know, just enjoy the time that you had. And I chose to do that. But, you know, I, I, it was, it was, it was great. I can't, I can't. Tell me about the night skies you saw. I mean, yeah, yeah, tell me. So one of the things that I learned when I was there, because of course the skies were incredible. But one of the things that I learned when I was there is that the Chilean people, we have our, you know, typical stories about the night sky. You have a Ryan the hunter and you have Torrance the pole. And so it's fine to have, you know, stories around these constellations. But down there, they have stories around the dark parts of the Milky Way. And I would have never, I would have never considered something like that because, well, first of all, they see a much different section of the Milky Way than we do. But they have, they have stories around the dark parts that talk about the llama and the baby llama and the fox that's, you know, trying to eat the llama. And then you have the shepherd that's trying to protect llama. And just these, it's this really rich culture that has been around for thousands of years. And it's the same story for thousands of years that help them. They, they know when to plant and they know when to harvest. And it's, it's everything that you would expect for astronomy in the Northern hemisphere. But it's, it's interesting that they're doing it with the dark, the dark lanes in the Milky Way rather than constellations. So they're not looking for the winter hexagon and they're not looking for the summer triangle. They're looking for something else, which is really cool. I would argue it makes more sense, honestly, given they see more of the Milky Way. Like how many times I'm sure you have people have been looking at constellations that are like, I don't see the lines. And it's like, there are no lines in real life guys. It's, well, I don't know how to draw the pictures. Like it's, it's hard. It's hard for people to paste the constellations together. The Milky Way makes a lot more logical sense to me, honestly. It really does. It really, it really, it really does. And it was, it was really cool to see it, but it was also cool to learn about it because we did have an evening of Archeoastronomy where we got to learn from some of the, the native population about these stories from their perspective. So it's not something that was written down on Wikipedia and it's just regurgitated to you. And maybe things have changed and things have been edited. No, it is straight from the source. And that was, that was really cool and really, really inspiring for me personally, because as a Puerto Rican woman, we have, you know, the Taino have their own stories and culture. But growing up in New York and growing up not with that side of the family, it's, you know, I didn't get to hear about these things growing up. So in a way, it felt nice just kind of connecting with some sort of, some sort of indigenous root there. That's beautiful. I love that. And there are just countless, countless stories of how people have interpreted the night sky. And every time I learned, like, I didn't know about the, seeing the shapes and the dark parts of the milky way. I did not know that. That's so beautiful. And I just love that, you know, it really, it belongs to all of humanity. We all see it in different ways. And I love learning about how different people have seen it. I mean, gosh, that's really cool. When you, when you tell people what your favorite takeaways were from this trip, I mean, you've told me a lot of really amazing things. That's got to rank up there. But like, what else do you also like to share from, from like your highlights, I guess? One of my favorite takeaways was seeing the cohesiveness of some of these institutions. It's not just one institution working in a silo and then, you know, oh, okay, and then we'll share our science with you once we're finished doing XYZ. No, everybody, they have different institutions that they work for. But everyone works together as a unit. And I thought that that was really cool because nothing is gate kept. It makes no sense for people to not share the knowledge or to embargo it or anything like that. Everything is shared across different departments, different divisions, within different institutions. And I thought that that was really cool. I was going to say lots of different institutions are there technically. But I mean, it sounds like on the ground, those distinctions don't really matter. They don't at all. Everyone is just working toward one goal and it's fantastic. And I mean, and of course, this, I would imagine that this would have to be true. Otherwise, they wouldn't be there. Everyone was an expert at what they did. And it didn't matter what they were doing, whether they were an engineer that was just working on repairs, whether they were doing shuttle services from point A to point B, if they were the actual astronomer sitting at the desk and analyzing data. If anyone that worked in food services and in any type of maintenance for the hotel rooms that they stayed at, everyone had this goal. Everyone worked together. And what was awesome is that I didn't detect, at least while I was there, I didn't detect a hint of classism between employees. No one is looking down at the person that is sweeping the floors or the person that is cleaning the food trays. Everyone is working together toward this goal. And that was incredible for me to see. That's it for T-minus Deep Space, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. T-minus Deep Space is produced by Alice Carruth. Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester, with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Ivan. Our executive editor is Brandon Karp. Simone Petrella is our president. Peter Kilpie is our publisher. And I'm your host, Maria Varmasus. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
