Lots of records have been set in space. The first man-made object in space, beep. The first man in space, the first to do a space walk, first man on the moon, that's one small step. Longest time spent in space, etc. etc. The list goes on. Our guest today holds the record for being the youngest woman to fly above the Karman line. That invisible line that is the internationally recognized boundary between Earth's atmosphere and space. Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks, I'm Maria Varmazes. Carson Kitchen is blazing a trail for other young women to follow. At age 21, she is the youngest woman to travel to space and is hoping that she can share her story so others can follow her path into the space industry. Hi Carson Kitchen, I am from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I am a senior at UNC Chapel Hill. I study communications and astronomy. I'm the president of the Carolina Astronomy Association here at UNC. I also worked at our local planetarium, the Warhead Planetarium. Here at UNC, I went to a program with the Green Bank Observatory and I did a research project in radio astronomy. I also just recently founded an organization called Orbital, an initiative that aims to inspire young women, specifically non-stem-minded young women to pursue opportunities and careers in the space industry. Let's see what else. Oh, and I just am a newly minted astronaut. I recently just became the youngest woman to travel past the Karman line at age 21. So my life has been really crazy. Not to bury the lead or anything about one. You happen to have also had this incredibly singular experience, which I've got to say for pretty much the rest of your life, you're going to be like, top this one. For folks who don't know about the Blue Origin flight that you were on, so this was NS26, tell me about the story, because I was reading a bit about it because I got a bit of a spoiler, so I don't want to give it away. Tell me a bit about the story about how you heard about Blue Origin and kind of got interested in going to space with Blue Origin. So I was always really interested and fascinated by space when I was a kid. Some of my first memories are me actually looking around in my environment and looking up specifically at the night sky because I lived in a place with lower light pollution. I was just so fascinated by space and the ever expanding field of it and also what it represented, that really anything is possible and that against all odds, you never really know what to expect and how that's so beautiful in life and how really anything is possible. And I was also really fascinated, which I later came to find out was physics, but I was really fascinated by how the world around me worked, how I could stay on the ground, I could only jump up a certain amount. I was also really fascinated by water and how water moved and why it moved a certain way. It's fluid dynamics, right? Yeah, exactly. I was really interested in how this world worked around me. A lot of people change their interests throughout their life or they don't really know what they want to do when they're my age. They don't really know what they want to do when they're past college, but I consider myself a very lucky person because if you asked me when I was three years old or five years old or seven or 13 or even 18 or even two months ago what I wanted to be, I would have the same answer and I would be to work in a space industry to be an astronaut. Space is like the bait of my existence. It's like it's why I'm here and I know that it's my purpose in life is to work in the space industry. I am just meant for space. I had a really interesting upbringing with it because I just naturally and better at arts and humanities like English history that just naturally comes better to me. I have to try a lot harder in math and science. I struggled with that in high school and a little bit about with that at the beginning of college and just where I fit in the space industry. I got the opportunity to go to my father's launch. My father, Jim Kitchen, actually flew with Blue Origin and it represented something different to him. A lot of people say that I am following in his footsteps and I wouldn't say it annoys me, but I wouldn't say that's naturally the right thing because he didn't grow up talking about space. That was just an interest that I developed on my own, which is actually really interesting like nature versus nurture because he also has an interest, but I just didn't hear about it growing up. Was it under the impression before that I really wasn't going to be able to fit into the space industry because I wasn't on track to get a degree in quantum physics. I wasn't going to be an engineer. I was under the impression that the space industry was only really very highly scientific esoteric group of people. I went to his launch and I got the opportunity to meet so many different people who work in such unique parts of the space industry, specifically like humanities, like journalists, writers, all of these artists, like fun people who I can see myself working in that kind of job and then kind of ignited this kind of fire. It rekindled this fire I already had. I kept in touch with all of these people and I told them that I wanted to go to space and I was like, "I think you'd be great for you because you set the youngest man to space and you can send me and I can represent the youngest woman and that would be a monopoly for you and that would look good for your business." But also I can be able to go to space. And so I guess I end up liking my business pitch because here I am today, but I'm also like, "Can I have a job? I love space and I promise you I'll regret it." Yeah, honestly, I was going to say, if they aren't already planning on hiring you, you're making a great case for it, honestly. Oh my gosh, she said so many really smart perspectives. You know, like to the space industry, having gone to space and wanting to go into like communications and humanities because I love making people's life better. I want to go into hospitality, so space and hospitality. Which is a growing, it's small but growing. I mean, it's especially with commercial space making its way in there. Honestly, you're getting in on the ground floor with that one. I know I'm skipping ahead a little bit, so like what I wanted to ask you about, about Orbe Del, but I really appreciate it because you mentioned that that's an organization for people who specifically non-STEM folks, especially non-STEM women, to get into space, which I'm really appreciating because we do need women in STEM. We do need people in STEM, but there are a lot of organizations looking for those folks, for those of us who are in comms, journalism, humanities. I'm sorry, I'm preaching now. That's not my job right. I resonate very strongly with that mission, like very personally strongly. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of why I founded it. You know, I was told my entire life that there was, historically it's been a male driven field, but I also historically have known that like I've been told my entire life, first of all, just like looking at our educational system. When you look at it, when you think of the typical image of a scientist, you think of a tall man in a white suit and a white lab coat. I think they use like male agents to teach about science and math. I love Bill Nye, but Bill Nye, Tim and Moby, like those are just two that came off the top of my head that are male driven scientific agents that are supposed to teach all types of ages. And you know, you learn about men specifically, about the space industry, and you have to be a professional astronaut or you have to be a veteran of like the Air Force to be able to even be considered to have a job in space. And so I think it's been this mysterious, like as I mentioned before, like an esoteric elite group of people that you have to belong to. When in reality, like I don't know why that is the dialogue and the narrative that we're putting in the space industry, because that is like, it's a business like no other. They need lawyers, they need accountants, they need writers, they need like people who do marketing, they need business strategists, they need like corporate people who work in government. Like they need everything. So it's a holdover from Apollo, isn't it? Yeah, it is a holdover from that mentality. Yeah. And especially with women, like women feel even more pressured to have to overperform. And so combined with like a lot of people being like, okay, well, you know, I'm math and science, I'll come really naturally to me. I'm not the best in my class. And I'm also a woman. So like how the hell am I ever going to get a job in this space industry? And like I struggle with that too. And I'm like, oh, you know, it's a lot. And especially for young teenage women who are dealing with false to the pressures of comparison and insecurity and adolescence. Oh, triple whammy, triple whammy. Yeah. A lot of women, young women, people self-select out because they're comparing themselves to like the best of their class. All right. So when you got the call about joining the crew of the 26th flight, 26 missions, tell me about that moment. Like what was that like? I was actually at dinner with my parents and my friends. And I basically learned that I was going to space and I blacked out. Oh my God. He blacked out. Okay, maybe that's maybe a little bit of an exaggeration, but like I literally freaked out. Like I freaked out. Like I don't even know how to even describe that like feeling because it's how does like someone coming up to you like out of the blue being like, oh yeah, by the way, you're going to space. So like you should get ready for that. And you're like, wait, hold on, hold the phone, hold the phone, hold the phone. And so basically I was just like crying. I was crying. I was so excited. There was so much anticipation. But that was, you know, that was two and a half almost three years ago. And I went to space almost a month ago. So there was a lot of in between. There was a little bit of every kind of emotion that you could ever feel. I was so excited and I was so, there was so much anticipation. I felt so grateful. I felt so lucky. I still do. But there was, you know, a little bit. And I think that people don't talk about this enough. I was a little scared. I mean, obviously, I was a little scared because I was like, okay, the fear didn't really set in until I got on the rocket. But I was a little anxious too, because I was feeling that I'm a cheat. I don't want to be like a one hit wonder. You know, I kind of thought, I don't, this is a big goal of mine. And what am I supposed to do after this? How am I supposed to top that? And so that was a big fear of mine for a long time. And I don't really have that fear anymore. But I was a little worried about that. I was just a little anxious and all the anxieties that I had about my flight, I actually incorporated into combating into my training. So I was really, I hate throwing up. I hate feeling nauseous. I hate passing out. It makes me freak out. And so I was really worried about combating G forces on the flight. And so I did centrifugal force training. Kind of kind of try to alleviate that anxiety. And it really helps. I was really glad I did that. I also did a zero G flight because I knew that I wanted to focus on, you know, what out the window. And I didn't, you know, obviously being in zero G is cool, but that's not, you know, why I'm going to space and going to space to go and look at space. So I'm glad I did all of that. So I did like a bunch of other. We also had emotional training. But really emotional training. There's two years. Yeah. We can talk about that. But for those two years, like I, I just. See, Maria, I had to like put it in the back of my brain because I wasn't going to get anything done. I literally wasn't going to, I was going to pull my hair out. If I thought about the fact that I was going to space every day, I would not be excited for anything. I would have been like, okay, nothing matters. I'm going to space. So yeah, I can't, I'm trying to imagine sitting in that for years. Like I would be the same and be like, okay, when am I going? And it's also like, I would forget about it for like a couple of months. And then I wonder, I'd be like, wait, hold on, wait, hold on. I'm going to space. Wait, let's not real. No, it's not real. And then I just move on. All right. So you mentioned, okay, this is a new one. I have not heard about emotional training because physical training, I can understand. So what is, what is that entail? That's, that's wild. A lot of astronauts do emotional training. I bet a lot of them don't talk about it because it's like one thing I don't like about the nature of astronauts is that you, they have to be seen as like these stoic people who are like, don't experience emotions, which definitely comes part of the training. Like I'm going to not going to lie. Like you do need a skill set of like being able to quickly pivot, like being able to remain calm under pressure, like being able to be quick at problem solving. Like all of those like emotional like control, like controlling your emotions is a very integral part of a mission just for success. Of course. Compartmentalizing it. Yeah. Especially if you're going like out to space, something's going to go wrong. And so you can't be like, oh my God, I'm going to die out here. Like I'm going to panic and everything's going to go wrong. So there is definitely like a level of like calmness you need to reach. But that honestly comes with training. Like I feel like honestly, the more you train, the more you're like, okay, I know what to do. I'm prepared for this. Like I'm not going to figure out an emergency. But there's also like, I would say a big thing for me was like a mortality type of training because there are a lot of risks inherently within spaceflight. And so knowing that there is a chance where there's a, you know, I want to say a high chance, but there is a chance that you can die within the next 15 minutes is definitely something that, you know, it's not easy to come to terms with. And I've, you know, I don't want to seem morbid or anything, but I always told my family, like I told my parents, told my friends, like, hey, like I love you. If something goes wrong, like just know that if I'm going to go out in this world, this is the way I would want to go out. Like I want to, I would want to lay my soul to rest in space. I feel like that would be really full circle for me. And that would probably be like the best way for me to do that. So I, you know, kind of came to terms with that for me, it was being able to stay quick on my feet, being able to quickly problem solve, being able to, you know, quickly pivot and stay calm and, you know, remain kind of clear headed, but also not to allow that to affect my ability to have emotions. Because it's such an incredible experience that I don't want to be like, there are so many people I feel like so many astronauts and all of them are incredible, but like that come back from space and like, yeah, that's cool. And like that's seriously like their reaction. And I'm like, that is not the reaction that we should be having going to space. Like that is not like, no, no, it was really a great trip. Like no, you should be like, oh my God. Like, allow yourself to feel the excitement. Well, I mean, I think that's been part of some of my favorite conversations with folks like yourself who've been to space or the folks who allow themselves to feel that and are at least open to sharing that they have felt that because to me, it's like, I'm not an elite. I'm not, you know, I'm not an elite anything. And I, you know, I know if I had an extraordinary experience like what you've had, I mean, my God, I would be feeling this things. This is like, it's so refreshing to hear people go, it blew my mind. It was incredible. I cried. Like I was sobbing the entire time. I was crying so hard that I literally had to be like strong crying because I, you had to go into escape enabled, which means like you literally can't move your hands. And I couldn't see out the window because my eyes were so like, oh no. And I was like, stop crying. I was like, stop. You have to shut up and like stop crying because I literally can't see. So I was like, I suddenly sobbing the entire time where my crewmates are like, are you okay? Like did something happen? I'm like, why aren't you asking me that I'm okay? Like I just went to space. What do you want me to be like? Like, yeah, cool. That was fun. Just seeing the most incredible thing that anyone has ever seen. Yeah, I need a moment. It's like, yeah. So, but you did comes a little bit with age, you know, maybe, but I mean, if, if even if fellow old folks are jaded by space, I mean, let's let people, yeah, I mean, yeah, whatever. I mean, it's like, come on. We'll be right back after this quick break. All right. So I feel like you're still fresh off of your, your, your flight. I mean, just, my God, it was only like a little over a month ago. Are there enough superlatives in the universe to describe those, the time that you were up there? I mean, can you relate any of that to me? I think that's really funny because I hate saying like, oh my God, words cannot describe that experience because people are like, okay, well, can you try? Like, can you maybe like try to put a couple together, like string some? And I'm like, I obviously study communications and vocabulary based off of human experience and not a lot of people have experienced space. So obviously it's normal that we don't have vocabulary to just describe some of that, but I will try my best. I think that was every adjective ever, every, I experienced, which is why I thought I was, I think I was so tired after my flight because it's also physically draining, but that it, I experienced every single human emotion, literally every single human emotion and with a span of like 15 minutes, which is so insane. Like that rocket, that rocket took off and the fire that comes like the dragon's breath, it was literally like sitting on top of a dragon because it kind of like awakes. It starts, it starts, you hear this like beating heart of that rocket and the fire just completely encapsulates the totality of the cabin and your push rock of this earth with such an immaculate speed that it seriously takes your breath away. And it's like, everyone knows the feeling of being on a roller coaster and dropping and your stomach kind of drops, but it was honestly, it was the opposite kind of reaction. I felt like my stomach was being pushed out. And I remember like we were going so fast, we're going 2300 miles an hour and I'm like, you're going so fast because it was a lot faster than I thought it was going to be. And honestly, I was like, I'm so excited. I'm so happy and I'm like so lucky to be doing this, but I'm also like kind of freaking out. That is the most honest reaction I've ever heard. Oh my God, bless you for saying that. I was just like, how could you not be freaking out? Anyway, sorry. Yeah, no, but I was like, I remember when we went past like the clouds, I was like, okay, I'm really doing this. Like then really like this is actually happening. Like I'm literally leaving the earth atmosphere right now. Like this is loco. Like this is literally crazy loco. What's happening right now? Is this really like the plan of action I wanted to take in my life? Like I couldn't pick something like maybe like a little less crazy to be my area of interest. But I'm like, wow, of course I have this for the stars. You're halfway up and you're like, I haven't some second thoughts. Well, I'm so excited and I had no negative emotion. I was just like, I was honestly laughing at myself because I'm like, of course, like I chose the craziest like life. But I remember like, I remember when we went past the clouds and the sky starts to get darker, like everything becomes to kind of get quieter and quieter and then Miko and separation happen and you're free falling. And everything just in an instant just like stops. It's the quietest. It's the quietest life has ever been. And you just, it literally is like time stops. And I remember looking out of my window and seeing like this incredibly bright blue fluorescent beating heart of an earth. And I was like, that thing is alive. Like that thing is like that thing can feel and that thing has is a lot powerful than we think it is. And it's so beautiful. And the wist of the atmosphere in this little bubble that like, that takes care of us and loves us and nourishes us and gives us everything we need. And you can see the texture of the mountains and the beautiful like beauty marks that earth has. And it's a lot smaller than I thought it would be, but it's so bright. And I think that's what really took my breath away and to look down at that planet and be like, that's my home. That is where everything that has ever existed has lived and how incredibly powerful that is and how that everything I've ever loved and I ever will love is on this beautiful planet. And it is my duty to take care of it. And it is my duty to enjoy my life because that thing has been there for 4.5 billion years. And we're lonely humans have only been alive for like 300,000 and how good things take time. And you know, how lucky I am to be able to be alive in this moment in time to be able to experience this, to be able to experience everything that life has to offer me to be able to go on a walk through my neighborhood, to be able to laugh with my friends, to be able to see like that we all gather together at the end of the day to watch our sun go down is so beautiful. And it's just how lucky I am to be able to feel the wind against my face and you know, to swim in our beautiful ocean. And I think it was just made me really lucky. It made me feel really lucky and really grateful and to just be able to be alive. And then you look out at this black contrast, fastness, this black void, devoid, drought of space. And it is so black. It is so black. And my crewmate said it perfectly. He said that it sucks your brain out of your head, which is kind of true. It really does. It's just like, oh my gosh, that's the blackest black I've ever seen. And it's a really interesting contrast because while it is the blackest black you've ever seen, it also has depth and it has dimension to it. And you can see that it has space. And then to look back and to see this flourishing, breathing, beating planet, you're like, oh my gosh. Out of nothing. Out of literally nothing, we are here flourishing. We are sending people back into space. We are here living. And that is the greatest gift that any of us have ever been given. To just be able to be alive and to exist here. And I feel like my entire life just changed in an instant. And I can see how it's changed in my life. My life feels quieter. It's less noisy. I feel great. I'm able to bright side things of my life more. I'm able to just take a breath and like, it's crazy even going on a walk. Like I just feel so lucky to be alive and to just like have this incredible perspective. And I was so emotional on that entire like, because I don't know much about life. I don't. I'm young and I only have, we only have what 80, if you're lucky, like 80 years on this planet. And that is literally like, and not even a blink and the entire lapse of this entire history of everything. And so it is my duty to do what the hell I want to do. But also to follow what, like follow my dreams and to just love me and like do what's best for me because at the end of the day, you come out of this world the same way that you leave by yourself and alone. And that's not supposed to be like a sorrowful statement, but it's just learning how to vote. It's just learning how to rely on yourself. And it just changed my mind on my perspective on entire, the entirety of life and how lucky we are to, you know, I've always said that, you know, the greatest gift that life has given us is our ability to feel and our ability to experience emotions and connections with living things. I've spoken to a lot of folks who've been to space, many of them, especially folks who've done things like, like a Blue Origin flight, for example, many of them have been much, much older. And for them, I feel like their flight was sort of like the reward of a long career or sort of like, as they're coming towards the sunset of their life or like their Apollo childhood dreams, like all that kind of narrative. What I love is that you are, you're right, you are starting, you're just at the very beginning of your grand adventure. There is going to be so much in your life as you continue. I look forward to hearing how this experience is going to inform that in ways that I'm sure you could never expect because it's going to, but you have such a unique perspective that is, I can tell you already have it, but it is going to be such a gift throughout your life. You're going to have experiences that will top this. I can guarantee that. I hope you won't. Oh, you don't, you don't want it to because other things in life will be cool to you. Do you think it's like go back to space? Honestly, I don't think that I've been looking forward to having kids, to getting married, to having a long and fulfilled life. But I don't know that is just like, I don't think people really understand like the gravity of what space means to me. If someone told me, if someone told me you pack your bags, we're sending you to space tomorrow and you'll never come back down to earth. I'd be like, okay, I miss my family and I miss my friends, but I do it in an instant, not even a second thought. But I do agree. I'm looking forward to my life. I don't want to mean that as like, oh, I can die happy, but like I want, I have goals. Yeah. And you have an explorer spirit. You have an explorer spirit. And as I said, like for me, what's so interesting is that because you are so young compared to people like a lot of folks tend to go like much later in their life, that's going to give you such a gift of perspective as you move through your career and accomplish those goals that you said that you're going to be pursuing. And the other thing that strikes me is the way you were describing how your trip to space sort of changed your perspective. I've heard people who have not been to space describe similar changes like when they've grieved the loss of someone, like after like a death in the family that like, or as someone that you really love, like that your perspective on life and how you self prioritize really changes. And as you were describing your trip, I'm like, that's an amazing similarity. I don't know where I'm going with that. I'm just like, I've, I personally have experienced that and like it's an amazing similarity. Yeah. I think that, that I think a lot of people forget is that we are space. Like we're currently in space right now. Like technically like, yes, we're not in outer space, but we live in space. Like we're part of it. Yeah. We're part of space. And I think that inherently the overview effect has this kind of description behind it. That's like people would go, what happens when they go to space. I feel stupid asking this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Thoughts on you, you're still on university right now. I know you're like, your life is just starting. Do you think, did this experience change what you imagine your trajectory is going to be? Like are you like, oh, now I'm going to devote myself to this instead of that? Or does it just too early to tell at this point? I think that's a really interesting question because I think, oh, going to space, which I'm sure you've heard before, like you have so many questions when you go to space and some of them get answered. But honestly, you come down with more questions. And I think, I think it's interesting because I'm also kind of at the same time, like joining the space industry. Like I had my first job in the space industry this past summer, or my first like official job, not like working at a planetarium or like doing research. But like my first job, like working in the corporate space industry this summer. So I'm kind of like developing two perspectives, like they're combining at once. But I think it changed my perspective. You know, there was a moment where I was like, do I want to become an environmental science? And I was like, no, I love earth and I love this place so much. And it's so special, but like, no. But it does, it has honestly created so many new questions in my brain that honestly, I think I want to start a business out of facing those questions. I am so I studied communications, obviously. And I have always been interested on the long term effects of colonization in space. And so many people do do science on, you know, how, you know, your molecular biology changes, how metabolism, how gene expression changes, like all these science experiments in space. But I don't think really anyone's thought about the humanitarian effects that colonization will inherently like present when we eventually go and present a colony in space. Like for example, how are we going to build a culture? How are we, how, how, what are the psychological effects of not having agriculture in space? What is a financial system going to look like? What is a judicial system going to look like? Like legislature? What is land ownership? What is accountability going to look like? How is someone going to crime? How exactly does punishment work? Like, I think that would be really interesting, a little like R&D think tank company. So that's something I've been interested in thinking about. I don't know if that's going to work or not. I don't know if that's already happening. But I can tell you I've had discussions with people piecemeal about that, but not wholesale. So I think there's something there. Like there are some people I've talked to are doing tiny parts of what you're mentioning. But I think the answer is a lot of people don't know yet. So you could be the first, honestly. Exactly. But I also, I have really, I'm not like recently that I really love like helping people. It's just like really makes me feel great. I love making people's lives better, making people's lives easier. So going into, you know, like, I, like, I want to say it was really like HR, but like cultivating an experience for someone in this space. I'm not sure I don't know exactly what that means. I really want to work at Blue Origin, which is so, so funny because I love that company more than anything in my entire life. I think it is one of the best companies ever. And I love the work they're doing, especially with their customer service and their customer experience and their whole team in general. And so he's giving me a talk. I was going to say, who better to be a customer advocate than literally someone who has been displaced at Blue Origin? Carson, I want to give you the opportunity to close out because I've talked too much. I want to hear, I guess, maybe we could do a pitch for Orvid El. If anyone who's watching is interested in learning more about how to get involved in the space industry, and maybe you don't feel like you're good enough, or maybe you don't feel like there's a place for you, I promise there is. And if you need any help, please feel free to email me, CarsonKitchen@gmail.com. But also my website, which is O-R-B-I-T-E-L-L-E dot org, is the way to find some resources and trust yourself, trust your instincts, know that wherever life is taking you, you might not know where it is going, but it's taking you in the right place, taking you where you need to be. And love y'all. And that's it for T-Minus Deep Space, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. T-Minus Deep Space is produced by Alice Carruth. Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. We are mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester, with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Iben. Our executive editor is Brandon Karp. Simone Petrella is our president. Peter Kilby is our publisher. And I am your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We will see you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING] . . . [MUSIC PLAYING]. [MUSIC PLAYING]
