[MUSIC] Long time listeners of this show know very well that the world is increasingly becoming reliant on space-based assets. In the span of a few years, we've gone from hundreds to tens of thousands of satellites in orbit. Well, how do you protect space assets from cyber threats? That has been a pressing question for the industry, and who is leading the way in this? Could it be Scotland? [MUSIC] Welcome to T-minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmausis. Sharon Lamakvin-Seer is an academic that focuses her research on the intersection of space and cyber security. She has released a report on space and cyber, which outlines how Scotland can lead the way in both industries, and there's more to come. [MUSIC] I have produced three reports and one's already out, so that's the Cyber Safe Gateway, and that's looking at Scotland's space cyber potential. So really what I wanted to do was Scotland builds more satellites than anywhere else in Europe, and I wanted to see what opportunities there may be for cyber security, because it makes complete sense to me that if we're building and manufacturing satellites, then we should really be thinking about the cyber secure by design built into that. But actually, there was so much more potential that came out of that report in terms of Scotland's ability for cyber security in the commercial space sector. And I think one of the nice things that I identified was that kind of historical heritage to build, bake that in as well, so not just kind of thinking about the innovation and the commercialization, but actually how do we make sure that it is truly Scottish and what does that really mean? So that was interesting, so that report's available. And then there's a UK-wide one coming out hopefully next week. And a final report on women leadership, female leadership at the intersection of space cyber, so. >> Oh my gosh, okay, okay, okay. That's not a small amount of work, so congratulations first of all. That is a huge round of get that done. My gosh, okay, so let's tell me a bit more about, well, I mean, I want to hear about more about each of these, but let's start with the first one that you mentioned about building in security by design in satellites that are made in Scotland specifically. So was this sort of a taking a look at what's happening now, like what maybe processes are? What was that report looking at specifically? >> Well, the UK more broadly is predominantly an SME market for space and we know that we've got a real issue in terms of how do we make sure the space sector is secure globally. So I was really just trying to find out what was the competitive advantage for Scotland given that they've got that historical kind of market position in terms of building the satellites. And just trying to see is there a real opportunity for developing the software as well. And we know that SMEs don't have enough funding for cybersecurity. If it's a case of putting food on your table and baking in cybersecurity, you're going to put the food on your table, aren't you? Because that's your kind of key issue to deal with that kind of day to day thing. So it was trying to work out, is there a different way of thinking that we can help SMEs and leaders see the value to build a more robust ecosystem for the space sector? >> All right, so tell me more about that. Yeah, that makes sense. I was also thinking SMEs in this case means not just subject matter experts, but also satellite manufacturers and engineers. Is that what we're? >> Small media enterprises. >> Okay, SME is an acronym. No, no, no, it's okay. I was like, which version of that are we using? Okay, that was my brain just going, okay, there's a lot of meetings of SME. All right, so small media enterprises that also, I used to know that one in my old marketing days. >> That's nice. >> No, no, no, no, so okay, I just wanted to make sure I was understanding what we meant by SMEs in this case. All right, so security as a differentiator, but there are significant barriers because of cost because it is usually seen as a cost center and not a profit center, understandably, that is a longstanding problem with, I'm not, it's not cybersecurity is fault, but that is a longstanding struggle in cybersecurity, that is a yes. So what recommendations, next steps, conclusions, what's the takeaway from that paper on that front? >> Yeah, well, I think there's, if you don't mind, a couple of other points in terms of language. Languages was a real issue as well, you know, in terms of space and cyber. I think we've mentioned that before about speaking different technical languages and how you bring that together. >> Like us and me, like we just, >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Just like we've done, and looking at the geopolitical landscape, looking at what different countries are doing and how they're approaching it. So the report also looks at different nations and looks at the laws and regulations and their technical appetite. So to see what's going to happen and what the movements are and looking at the power that commercial actors actually wield within this kind of growing sector, the intersection of space and cyber. So in terms of the report, it suggests that Scotland should be really kind of maximising that potential at the intersection because I don't see many nations actually capitalising on the space-cyber intersection. So there's work being done, but I was surprised, and even, I'm not afraid to admit it, that this is my area, but even I was surprised that the entrepreneurial opportunities at the intersection, you know, there's, for those businesses so inclined to actually put their resources and time and effort here, I think they're going to make significant returns on their investment because this is a global problem. Yeah, and so Scotland stands to benefit as a leader in that, it sounds like, which that's a pretty significant area to be a leader in right now especially. Yeah, so in addition to my reports, I've also proposed a new conceptual framework to try and help businesses to think about cyber. So back to that problem, that cyber is a tick box exercise. It happens annually, it's not very sexy, and we've got multiple barriers. So when I was doing my read, is that an understatement? Not very sexy, no, yeah. It's not sexy at all. I know, I know, I know. You get to face which people go into because it's like, "Oh, space is cool." And you talk about cyber and they go, "Aw." That's it, don't they? They just seem to turn off sadly. And yet cyber is super exciting, and it's so important that you kind of go, "Really, this is a really sexy area, but it's got a really bad image, right?" So it needs some help. Some PRL, yeah. So when I was doing my research and writing my many reports, the same kind of issues kept on coming up. And that made me think of a strap line that I shared this week at Global Millsat. And basically what I'm suggesting is that for the space sector in terms of cybersecurity, we need entrepreneurs and leaders to think like spies. So that's a top line. So think like spies, look at the horizon, scanning, looking the gaps, looking the blind side, and start to think about what is the next type of threat vector that we're going to have to face in the kind of space domain, and what kind of approaches can we do to develop products and services that help address that. So we need people in cyber to think like spies. We need them to build systems that, so we need to build resilient systems for harsh environments and that unpredictability. So we need to build like astronauts, because if we think about astronauts in space, they've not got all the tools. We just need to think about the Apollo 13 mission, yeah. When they had to, yeah, so they had to recover quickly and it was mission critical. So you need to think like a spy, you need to build like an astronaut, and then you need to innovate like an entrepreneur. So we need products in the market. So we need to start thinking about that entrepreneurial and that kind of disruption and innovation and really inject it. So I think if we think like that, it kind of makes it a bit more sexier, yeah, because we're spies, we're space and we're entrepreneurs, three of the most sexiest things that we could do, yeah. I'm like, that's some great messaging. I just have to say, I love that. Great top lines. Just my marketing reigns going, ooh, that's very nice. So that's directed mainly at like the space industry, because you know, people were building these incredible systems in spacecraft. I'm just curious, do you think the cybersecurity industry is ready to support the space industry in the way that the space industry needs? Like do we think that they understand the space industry's challenges, or is it still just sort of again, that two different languages situation? Yeah, I genuinely don't think cyber fully understands space, right? However, as I've said by my reports, the pure entrepreneurial potential, right? So if we're talking about, you know, follow the money, right? Or money talks, if you're a cyber professional, getting to understand space, you're guaranteed to make quite significant sums in my opinion, right? Because as the space sector is only going to grow, and in terms of we think about even the dual nature in the military, the attacks in space are so significant and so important that if you were to be able to develop the products and services to help protect space assets from cyber attacks, you're only a winner in my opinion, right? So if you follow the money, I think cyber professionals should be thinking about that. And then if we make it sexier and more engaging, so we say, well, we need people that are think like spies and build like astronauts and innovate like entrepreneurs, and we make it that gateway that it becomes a really sexy intersection. And it's got the kind of evidence base and the money behind it. To me, it's a no, why would you not want to be doing it? Yeah, no, I'm with you on that. I love this intersection of all, I just, I love it. It's such a fascinating place to be. And it's also just to get a little woo, I guess, the cultural meshing is just fascinating to sort of watch that happening in real time, because that has to happen too. But anyway, I know what we're talking about, like the business capabilities and technical capabilities and technical understanding from two very complex worlds that need to mesh more. And it's just really, I envy you Sharon, you're at the core of the place that you get to be in that. You really are. And to be able to think differently because it's kind of blanks slate. You know, the intersection. So that's why I think it's dead cool for other people to join, you know, we've not got enough people that are working in this space. But there is a blank space there that you can really kind of put your mark there. So I think that's really exciting for a professional as well to be going, well, actually, that's where I want to be. So yeah, so that's my, it's a new conceptual framework and it builds on. I'm not going to bore you to tears, but it pulls on academic theories and a strong evidence base. So there's robustness underneath that. But for those that don't need to understand the theoretical frameworks in that, I think the top line is quite catchy in my opinion. And hopefully that'll, yeah, hopefully that'll encourage people to explore more. We'll be right back after this quick break. I'm wondering for folks in the space industry who want to build better, build more secure by design, what is, I guess, what's their next step is, is it a matter of just hiring a cyber person or cyber team or is this something that they have to build their own expertise internally? Is it working with a vendor? Like, I mean, I imagine it depends a lot on what you're doing, but I mean, what is the path there? Well, it's interesting. And I think, although I'm talking about entrepreneurs in the commercial sector, I was at Mil-Sat where I was speaking this week, Global Mil-Sat in London. And really, when we're seeing more of the military engaging with commercial products and obviously the commercial off the shelf products, but we're seeing a real fusion here like never before between the commercial actors. So I think it's really interesting to see how that is going to feed through the ecosystem. Back to your point, is it that you just, you're looking for a cyber person? I don't think we have the skills. In fact, my report suggests that we don't. There's a massive gap, right? And we've got a war of going on in terms of skills. And the people that understand space and cyber and understand that intersection are going to be really sought after. And I would suggest that the salaries, et cetera, are going to reflect that expertise as well, because I don't think you can just take a cyber person and put them in space. I don't think that's going to work. It's just we need a more of a fusion and integration rather than to silos or pro-cheese. Yeah. I think you're totally spot on. And the people that I've interviewed that have a really solid or seem to from the outside, a really solid understanding of both worlds, almost 201 have military backgrounds, which I think is really fascinating and a great opportunity for folks who are coming out of the military looking for what they want to move into. I think that's an amazing advantage for our veterans. So that's great. For those of us who are not in the military, I think it's an interesting question on how to gain that expertise. But I mean, I'm sure there are paths. I mean, I don't know what they are, but I'm sure there are. But gosh, if I was doing it all over again, if I was 20 years younger and looking at a career path, I'd be like, I don't know what I'd be looking at you too, because this is really cool. Yeah, because my interest meshed. Well, exactly. But it's such a niche issue just today. Right. But if we think 20 years ago, we think about social media, right? That was a niche issue. And look how it's transformed our world. Right. And as I said, there's no country that's got this tie down. So for professionals looking for carve out their niche, this is a fantastic area, but it's also mission critical as well. Yes, indeed. Yep. Yeah. Oh, look, you know, I could talk to you about this like for literal hours. Oh my God. All right. So I, so, so that sort of is your first paper. You also had a second paper, which just more broadly looks at the UK in general, sort of similar issue. Any takeaways from that that are distinctive that you want to highlight from that one? No, I think just really as it came back to the similar message, unsurprisingly, that, you know, if the UK wants to be a leader in space, then this is one area that it could really say, yeah, it could really lead. So that's why I'm suggesting it focuses on the cyber safe gateway. So other nations want to work with us because we're prioritizing cyber security and resilience, not just for domestic space sector, but for the global sector as well. We want to, I think we should aim to be a preferred partner and one that looks at secure by design. Absolutely. All right. Another great takeaway there. So the third, now the third paper, that one was women in leadership in space cyber. Am I remembering that one correctly? Okay. I don't know if anyone has anyone actually covered that before because I was going to say, I think you're the first. Please tell me more about that because I am very interested in that. Well, I'm not giving all my secrets away before it's published. Oh, come on. Yeah, but it's just really looking at this gap. As I've said already, there's not enough people at this intersection, but when we look at women in both space and cyber, we know that there's real problems with inclusion. We know that there's leadership gaps. So my argument is that we need to start thinking about what the criminal or hostile nation posture is. Right? And what can, what is the competitive advantage that women can bring? And what is the type of leadership that we can develop in this intersection? And there's so many opportunities for women to lead here. And it's addressing the historical lack of inclusion in both sectors. So I'm basically suggesting, look, the sector needs disruption. At the intersection, we need disruption and we need new ways of thinking. And women are bringing a whole diverse strength to that intersection that we need to include them. So, sorry, maybe that's a waffle. No, no, it's quite all right. The ongoing struggles of trying to have more women in these areas, including in these areas, but also just in general, a lot of the very, the areas where historically women have not often been in as much. I was an engineer for some years and then I left. So I'm like, I'm part of the problem. I dropped out of that, which I always feel kind of guilty about that. But it is, yeah, I know, I know, but I just, it's just always like, oh, yeah. It's not any, nobody has like a silver bullet answer to this. This is such a complex mesh of so many factors that, you know, but yes, I'm so good. Yeah. And you know, the point I'm making as well is that this is not at the detriment or anti-male neither is about actually inclusion means that everyone wins because we're challenging the norm so that everyone can help make their mark in this space. So it's very much, you know, looking at leadership as well, because I want women to reach the highest levels in this intersection as possible. So yeah, so that's that. I appreciate that. Well, I really, I don't think I've read that one. So I would like to, if you don't mind, I would love to read that. That's so great. Sharon, you're amazing. Thank you just for talking to me yet again about all the amazing things you've been working on. Now I got to ask, what are you up to next? Oh, well, I've not even finished with my list. You haven't finished with your list? Oh my God, I thought there were three. There's more than three. Well, there's three reports and my new framework. But one of the also cool things is that I've put my tart in into a spacesuit and it's the first tart in spacesuit. Did you see it? Did you share that on LinkedIn? I feel like you've shared that on LinkedIn at some point. Yeah. Okay. So I know what you're talking about. The listeners might not. So yeah, tell me more. So at the start of the year, I registered my space tart in Vinci and Ad Astra. And I've been looking at this. How do we curate the space heritage in Scotland? And what does that mean like? Mean for Scotland as it's emerging as a space sector. So I took my tart in and I've created a tart in spacesuit. It's so amazing. I love that you did that. I just really love that you did that. You just want the extra steps to make that happen. I just... So great. So I'm hoping to make, I'm hoping to have it in production. So I'm hoping to have the space suit ready in 2025. Where will I be able to see this space suit once it's made? Because I need to see it badly. Oh, I'm hoping that it will be traveling to space conferences in 2025. That's a plan. I cannot wait to get my photo with your space suit. I can't even begin to tell you. You're neither. Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's so great. I love that so much. Is there a mock-up of that? Did you do a mock-up? Maybe, yeah, you did. Yeah, we'll have to put a link to that in the show notes. Because it's really, I just... That, like, am I imagining that or did you have a mock-up of this? Yeah. Oh my God. So, space suit, tartan, space suit. Heart and space suit. Tartan space suit. Okay. So, because you're always busy, what are you working on next? What am I working on next? No, really, it's just academic papers now, just sharing the theoretical working. You know, it's an academic as well. My many bows, we've got to write an academic journal. So, that's what I'm going to be hibernating for the next few months and writing my journals. Oh, fun times. Hibernating for the winter, I get it. Bless it. Yeah, well, I wish you all the best on that. My dad was a professor many years ago, so I remember it well. Yeah, it's a lot, so I wish you all the best on that. Thank you. And Sharon, you know, I love talking to you. Like, anytime. So, please, when you have more exciting things to share, please, please come back, because you know, I will happily chat with you anytime. Thank you, Maria. And can we remember people to think like spies, build like astronauts, and innovate like entrepreneurs? That's it for T-Minus Deep Space, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. T-Minus Deep Space is produced by Alice Carruth. Our associate producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester, with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. Our executive editor is Brandon Karp. Simone Petrella is our president. Peter Kilpie is our publisher. And I'm your host, Maria Varmazis. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
