As demand for innovative space capabilities continues to grow from both the United States government and the commercial sector, a critical gap exists in the availability of flight-proven technologies. And this is creating challenges for buyers, insurers, investors and regulators in assessing risk. So how do we get around this really tricky flight-proven paradox? [Music] Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmazes. I spoke with Ron Burke, principal director of the Space Enterprise Evolution Directorate at the Aerospace Corporation, and Erin Miller, executive director at SpaceISAC at SpaceComm in Florida, to discuss their new initiative to help companies get to flight-proven. Welcome to T-Minus Space Daily from Commercial Space Week, and now I'm joined by two guests from the Aerospace Corporation and the SpaceISAC. Could you please introduce yourselves first, left or right? Erin Miller, executive director at SpaceISAC, and SpaceISAC is an information sharing and analysis center where we share threat and vulnerability information. We also do operational collaboration and advanced technologies and capabilities. Really excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Thanks for joining today. Thanks. Alright, and thanks, Maria. Ron Burke with the Aerospace Corporation, focusing on space enterprise evolution, so the areas of space that look different through the windshield and through the rear view, and hoping to build the capability and capacity to be able to meet these emerging challenges into the future. Excellent. Well, thank you both for joining me today. I've been really looking forward to this chat, because big fans of the work that you both are doing. So, Ron, we had started talking a little earlier about the increasing need for, you know, higher cadence of launch and the challenges that's going to bring, and I didn't want to sort of spoil this. I wanted to hear your thesis statement on that, because it was really fascinating. If you don't mind indulging me. No, absolutely, Maria. So, we are all seeing this uptick, right, this continued increase in the launch cadence, which is extremely valuable in its own right, right, getting up to 260 launches last year. But with that, coupled with that, is also an increase in what the commercial community is doing, right? So, we understand that there's on the order of 10,000 companies, space companies in the world, on the order of 5,000 in the U.S., and they're all developing capabilities that, of course, they all plan to take to space, right? So, it's going to take a lot of launch capacity, a strong launch cadence to get that up. But one of the things that we're recognizing is that the level of development has outpaced the level of deployment, at least to this point, right? So, I'll take just one very specific area to kind of put a context. In the area of in-space servicing, assembly, and manufacturing, we're tracking over 400 companies. That are developing capabilities. We're also tracking what's been deployed, and according to the information that we have, it's on the order of 7. So, we recognize that, you know, 2% sort of running through the pipeline from development to deployment in space is lower than any of us would like, right? So, we are looking for paths to be able to accelerate the deployment of these innovative commercial capabilities, very consistent with the Space Force commercial space strategy. And so, with that, we have developed this wonderful partnership with the Space ISAC. So, Erin, over to you to talk a bit about the kinds of things that we're doing to do that acceleration. Yes, please, yeah. Yeah, this is a big new program that Space ISAC is doing in partnership with the Aerospace Corporation. It's one of several things that we do. So, I mentioned we also do threatened vulnerability sharing, and we do this through our operational watch center, which became available in 2023. So, it's now been operating for a while, and we have an information sharing portal as a result of that capability. And it's already operating on a global scale. We designated Australia as a global hub last year in August. We're working towards a full AUKUS, plus Japan and EU countries collaboration. Fantastic, yeah. Threat sharing. Yep. And we also have a vulnerability lab. Well, that vulnerability lab is just one lab. And what we came to realize is that across Australia, the US, and the UK, and other places around the world with similar interests, then there's a lot of testing capability. Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of commercial and government funded initiatives that allow for us to advance the development of technology. So, it's not just the security focus. It's also an operational focus so that we can solve this flight proven paradox. Because the faster we can get to flight proven, then the faster we're going to get ahead of our adversaries. And that's what SpaceISAC is about. Broadly, we are about security and national security. So, this new program is completely in alignment with our initial intent of the SpaceISAC. And now you'll find services on our member portal that showcase the testbeds improving grounds across the AUKUS partnership. Wow. That's our starting place. Wow, that's really cool. And that does make a lot of sense as I hear you describe it. And it speaks really well to the mission also here. And I think it's been about almost a year since we all last spoke. And I'm just wondering, putting sort of like my old cyber hat on a little bit about like the nature of the evolving threat. What we've seen in the last year again as we're increasing that cadence, like what have we seen? What are we seeing? Yeah, geopolitical dynamics have led to what we're considering pivoting across different domains. So, typically, you'd hear probably like military folks talk about this kind of thing or intelligence community. But the commercial world cares a lot about this now because it affects their ability to do business. So we see massive amounts of GNSS interference on a daily basis, which impacts aviation as well as the space industry. And then we see as, you know, owner operators are traversing around the world and their satellites are being interfered with. Payloads are being interfered with. And there's a variety of different types of non-kinetic and kinetic activities occurring. Right, right. And there's a lot of close proximity events and standoffs kind of in space, which is an evolving and slightly newer dynamic for the commercial sector to have to deal with. So right now in Space ISAC, we're preparing the commercial sector to handle new types of threats and situations through operational collaboration. Are you seeing like that greater maturity from within the commercial sector in terms of, I guess, operational ability to take on what they need to do to sort of mitigate these threats? Or what are you seeing out there? We have an initiative underway to create the most robust threat intel feed that exists. And that's coming out of the watch center. But that will also inform a lot of the supply chain activities and these testbeds improving grounds as well. Because we need to test for what is actually occurring. We need to prepare for an operational environment. So it is a full cycle feedback loop. The Space ISAC operates completely outside of the acquisition cycle. So we're not necessarily helping companies find funding for these initiatives, but we are putting them in a position where they can do the appropriate testing as fast as possible, have access to their resources, and know what the threat is that they're preparing for. At the same time. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, and Erin, I'd like to pick up on that point about the operational environment. And that's the real essence of the words proving grounds in this set of activities, not just testbeds in terms of the traditional sort of thermal back and other fundamental test facilities to verify that components and systems can operate in the vacuum of space. Right. It's also being able to test that the test like you fly, right, to be able to test the operation of the capability in its environment. And with all of these different capabilities that are being developed, right, thousands of individual companies putting up capabilities. There is the recognition that we increasingly have to be able to test the performance between systems, right, as we evolve into ecosystems from a legacy of purpose built kinds of space solutions to more individually developed capabilities intended to be reconfigured or configured in different ways in space. That's a huge shift. It's a huge shift. And it puts a completely different set of challenges on space capabilities. It makes it simpler for in terms of focusing on a very specific type of performance, functional performance. But it makes it more complicated in the sense that you have to be sure that while you're performing as intended, you're doing no harm to other capabilities that are in space and operating in proximity or tandem in the process. We'll be right back. So we've got increased cadence, increased complexity, quite a challenge, but like a lot of opportunities there too. Oh, absolutely. And fortunately, a lot of capability. As Aaron has mentioned, we are tracking over a hundred testbeds and proving grounds that exist and that can be available for these kinds of uses. And one of the challenges that we're seeking to enable by through our partnership is to streamline access to these capabilities, make that part easier, smoother so that things can go faster. Yeah. So how would, you know, an interested party get involved with this? So the front door for this activity is through Space ISAC. Okay. Yep. And there are other ways that are available in the community. So recognizing that, you know, that there are multiple paths, one straightforward path is through Space ISAC. So Aaron, maybe share the, you know, access. Yeah, this is a, it's a trusted environment that we're creating. So every entity that has a testbed or proving ground, they do go through our vetting process and we accept them in as a member or a formal partner. We work together through those steps to do onboarding and then they can provide their information into the portal. And any other trusted member of the community that's on the portal can view these sets of services that are available for testbeds and proving grounds. And one of the great things too is that we're not in the middle, so we're not going to broker the selling of a service. Right. Not the scheduling. Yeah, no, no, yeah. We're ensuring a high quality product that is going to deliver for this trusted environment. And it's also not like anything that's ever existed before. Shockingly. Why has no one ever tried to put these things together? Because we desperately need a place that is like a catalog. Yeah. So we can do proper integration. There are so many services that are out there that are commercial funded, federally funded, and we're not seeing the full scope of them when we make our, have people make decisions within companies about how they're going to design, build and test and deploy. Yeah. Erin, can you share a little bit about your background working in the community and recognizing a very large number of testbeds and proving grounds for research purposes that you were mentioning yesterday. Yes, sort of the genesis of this idea sounds like, right? Right. But haven't had their time and a son. Right. Yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, please. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I know things are going to come full circle, but I used to work in technology transfer. So I was, I spent almost a decade, actually longer working to help researchers get their technology licensed. And all along the way, then I was working with the Department of Defense Technology Transfer Community, the federal lab consortium. And we didn't really work on an international scale necessarily, but we were on a regular basis engaging with the researchers, the scientists and the engineers who are being funded primarily by US government dollars to do their work. Okay. And they all work in a testbed or proving ground type environment or adjacent to. And we invest the US government invest billions of dollars for sure in our federal labs and our national labs. And they're an amazing, incredible resource. We also have the commercial sector doing similar type things, investing their dollars in testbeds and proving grounds. Yeah. So now it's time for us to maximize and create efficiency so that we can get more flight proving capability as fast as possible. And I'm just amazed that we've gotten to this point that we can do this. It really makes brings me quite a lot of joy. Yes, I can tell. Because I saw the challenges that, you know, exposure to these labs, they have challenges getting the word out because they don't have full marketing teams. And there could be underutilized resources that are already funded that commercial needs to take advantage of right now. Yeah. And that feels almost criminal given the situation that's going on. Right now. Yeah. I mean, from a supply and demand standpoint, just this morning here at Spacecom, right in the session, the NASA session this morning, our colleagues at NASA Stennis were talking about their test stands and wanting to be sure that the community was aware that they're available. And they were highlighting some of the different companies that they supported with rocket testing. And they even commented to two points you just made, one, that billions of dollars have been invested and two, that they have underutilized facilities that they want to maximize the use of. So, you know, we're seeing, yeah, so all of this is intended to put wind in the sails. I mean, it puts wind in our sails to recognize that, you know, we might be able to, you know, align this demand and supply. But there's a community of decision makers on the path from a space based capability to developing to its deployment. And we've come to euphemistically and endearingly refer to that group as gatekeepers. Okay. That loaded term. Yeah. Yes. But, you know, in a positive sense, right? So investors, insurers, regulators, acquirers and integrators all make decisions. About, you know, what they're prepared to support, right, in their systems of systems and ecosystem configurations. As we've talked to those communities and wonderful experts in each of those communities, a common element has come out from them as a community that one of the reasons that things are not going faster is because they're all expecting in quotes flight proven. Yeah. Yeah, that paradox. Yeah. That's where the flight proven paradox comes from, right? Is that everybody wants things to go faster. But only if it's flight proven, right? Only if it's flight proven. So, you know, we see test beds and proven grounds as a way to move in that direction. Culture shift. Yeah, really, that's the mindset shift to culture shift. But we need these resources to make that happen and to get that ball rolling. Exactly. Now, it makes a lot of sense. And it also, as I said, it's smart in the way that it fits into the mission as well. Like it makes a lot of sense as you describe it. So, yeah, it's great. So thank you for telling me about it. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think there is a policy, ultimately policy implication for what we're doing too. Oh, yeah. The more effective and efficiently we create these integration capabilities to make them available to the industry, then the more likely it is that we're going to see and measure the demand for these different services. And there's already a commercial test authority that exists that NASA leverages and other federal and national laboratories. So, yeah, I think that creating access for the commercial sector is part of what we're doing, ultimately, for national security purposes and to get ahead of that flight proven curve. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So, you know, one sort of additional dimension that is evolving for us, you had asked earlier what's next, right? Always. What's on the horizon, right? Always that annoying question I got asked. I love it. I love it. So, you know, one of the things that, you know, as we've put this approach together, we recognize that there are both physical test beds. We talked about test stands clearly, very much physical entities, but also digital, digital test beds that are built in a digital engineering, digital twinning environment. And, Aaron, your point just now about the policy and regulatory really like prompts and emphasis that we are seeing sophisticated, real, realistic, right? So, digital twins that are representative of the physical environment and the as built environment that are evolving. The more that that happens, the more that we're going to be able to use those tools and capabilities to participate in the testing process. And in particular, in difficult to, I'm going to say access in the sense of, you know, the Cislunar domain is not easy to access. No. But being able to verify that different capabilities that are designed for Cislunar from different companies, we're actually going to be able to work together when they're deployed, right? 300,000 kilometers away. Yeah, can't fix the ones out there. Can't fix the ones out there. So, these digital twin environments, Cislunar digital twins are going to be very valuable in that regard. And we are seeing some very impressive progress towards realistic and usable digital twins. Yeah, it seems like we're definitely getting there, honestly. It's been really interesting talking to people, sorry, I don't have to go into that rabbit hole, but like, been fascinating talking to people who are working on that. Yes. And just, we couldn't have been here five, 10 years ago. No. It's like, but we're getting there really soon. It's amazing. It's just absolutely amazing to be able to validate in that way. Yeah. And we're seeing adjacent industries to the space industry implement the industrial metaverse. And when I first heard that, it sounded, right? Yeah. What is that? Yeah. What is that? Curiosity. So, looking into it, I have been really impressed and compelled to recognize that it's very real. It's a full digital environment that a number of companies engage in to be able to work through those kinds of problems. And adjacent industries, they've been using it for, on the order of 20 years. Yeah. Amazing. It's great to pull those best practices from other industries. We don't have to reinvent the wheel in space at all. That was a weird metaphor that I just used, but I think you know what I mean. I did. Well, I know that we're coming up on time, but I wanted to make sure that you both got any last thoughts you want to impart to the audience. You want to go first? Yeah. Yeah, I'll give you my thoughts on the future. Sure. I think we're going to see the exercise program that Space ISAC runs. We do about four exercises a year that are developed by the commercial sector. Incorporate a number of these different testbeds improving grounds. In particular, the ones that are in space testbeds improving grounds into our exercises. Because showing industry in these sessions that are taking place in just slightly in the future, what the capabilities are through an exercise is always great fun. People have a blast dealing with an incident. It's surprising. They also learn and can be exposed to new capabilities in a very rapid fashion because these are like three hour exercises. Yeah, that is really cool. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for having us with you today. I was like talking to you both. It's always a pleasure. It's fabulous. So just a closing is a call, an invitation to your audience to reach out and recognize additional testbeds improving grounds that you, you know, people in the community would like to see recognized. And also reach out if you're looking for that testbed improving ground that you are certain exists and could help you to move through the, I'll say the wickets faster. And would like to be able to have an easier access to be able to use that resource. Awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you both so much for your time today. It's been a pleasure as always seeing you both. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That's it for T minus deep space brought to you by N2K cyber wire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures that we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. N2K senior producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Iben. Peter Kilpe is our publisher. And I'm your host, Maria Varmazis. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING]
