Igniting passion is the objective of educators the world over. Why not use space to capture the imagination and engage interest? And what's Australia doing in this area? Well, to find out more, we ask the Edunaut. [Music] Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmazes. Our guest today is Jonathan Naldor, better known as Jonathan the Edunaut. I'll let him explain what his title means. I guess I call myself Edunaut, Jonathan the Edunaut. And Edunaut, you know, we're really talking sort of education combined, you know, with the idea of space, the space industry. And, you know, that sort of even just that bigger idea of combining is kind of where I come from. I have a background originally in the arts. So writing and theater poetry, that sort of things. But I also always had a love of aerospace. And when I was a kid, if you asked me what did I want to be, I would have said a writer and a pilot. And so, you know, all my way even through to being a teacher and various other roles, that idea of combining. Yeah, let's keep maybe the arts or the humanities might be a better term. You know, what makes us tick as humans, what we value most as humans throughout each other. But also, yeah, aerospace and science and technology, those kind of things, combining them together. And I did get to, I have got to do a bit of writing along the way and also got a pilot's license. So at age of 18, I had a commercial pilot's license. And that was amazing. Like, you know, at that age, it's like, oh, where am I going to jump in a little plane? Where am I going to fly today? Kind of thing. That was, that was fantastic. Didn't end up getting into that area as a career, but did go to university and I was studying the humanities. And after a couple of years of that, which were amazing, just putting on a little arts events and enjoying exploring. Yeah, I did get sick of being a poor art student. So then added teaching as well as my sort of get a real job moment, I guess. And yeah, absolutely loved being in that area as a career. I'm taught in high school, as we call it here in Australia. Also primary schools and work with students with learning difficulties for a number of years. And from there, I guess, you know, I really started discovering how when used properly, how technologies can really assist, especially those struggling learners to be more independent and help, you know, help themselves. And yeah, kind of went on to train teachers, etc. But still mainly sort of within that sort of technology and education. Then a few years into that, I had the chance to sort of step back into a bit of a more the startup type area and envision what would I put, you know, if I could put together from all of my interests and experience, what would I put together? And that became what we call the first kids on Mars project. And really based around the idea of like, what, you know, if when we have a school on Mars, what would that school look like? And it's going to be maybe the same, but maybe different. But that turned into this amazing sort of catalyst for discussions and workshops of, yeah, like, what, you know, if we did this thing, you know, X on Mars, what would it, what will it look like? To the point where I even got to run some workshops with a government department that looks after the dairy industry in Queensland. And, you know, we did the first dairy on Mars. And of course, there's probably never going to be cows on Mars. So that was a really interesting one of where that concept would be. What a thought exercise. Yeah, that's wild. Yeah. And then from there to, yeah, various other, you know, I got to some STEM companies to run a project called Space 2101, which was sort of a series of five-day space camps in places around the world where we had astronauts come. And then more recently, I really wanted to focus in on probably the earlier, younger, I guess, space nerds, you know, like, and it's kind of where we all start. And that has been, that has been the first Kids in Space project, which, yeah, we may talk more about. So all that stuff. I'm still working in, still working in education schools with a group called the Australian Computer Society and supporting students as they, I guess, figure out their pathway from school into a career, mainly in the tech industry. That's sort of where I'm working now, but also take every chance I can to talk about kids in space with, yeah, people like yourself. Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, that was an awesome introduction. You have done a lot. You are doing a lot of things. I'm super impressed because honestly, you mentioned two things that are extraordinarily important to me personally about that transition from schooling to career where I think a lot of young people do, it's hard to navigate that part. I remember I had a hard time with that. Yeah, it's really difficult. And then also I have a seven year old who is a little nerdling. So when you talk, when I was reading about first kids in space, a big surprise because her mom and dad are both nerds, but I was like, she's in that sweet spot and that in that age range that first kids in space address it. So please tell us more about that program because it's really fascinating. Yeah. To be honest, I was probably, I'm probably talking about four or five months ago now. And, you know, I got to, again, I had sort of, you know, I've been doing some of those other space projects. I had the chance to start working on a new one. And, you know, I've got some wonderful, wonderful colleagues who are also doing space education work. And some here in Australia in the US, you've got Mark Wagner and the network of educators that he supports. And there's many of those amazing programs that are happening. Sure, you probably talk to a number of those people, but at that younger, earlier stage, there's not, you know, for a lot of reasons, I guess. It's hard. Yeah, it's harder. Those kids can't come along to things or, you know, what do you do courses or whatever, you know. Yeah. So that's sort of why I wanted to target that. That's a realization of, yeah, that really early stage. Yeah. There's not necessarily a lot there. In some ways, it's a little bit stereotypical, this idea of, oh, what, you know, what first got you interested in space, that kind of classic question, if you interview an astronaut or, you know, like there's always an awesome one in. I've done it. Yeah. I'm guilty of that cliche I have done. Yes. But there's probably a reason why, you know, we always want to know that, you know, beyond just the cliche, I guess. And so, yeah, it's something that you always ask astronauts and, you know, space industry professionals. But I guess the earlier part of my idea around first kids in space was, imagine if you just actually ask kids at the time when they're still kids, you know, not like 10, 20, 30 years, whatever, into their careers. What are they saying at that early, early sort of point? And so I've been working with this astrobiologist, Dr. McKayla Musselova, and helping her put together a citizen science project. And citizen science, the idea that anyone can contribute their data into a wider project. I mean, McKayla is collecting data. She's on a seven summits mission over the current sort of few years where she's visiting each of the high seven summits and collecting data as a way of raising awareness around astrobiology. So helping her set up the citizen science project and so thinking, okay, that's great for collecting data. Actually, I was in near a glace here in New Zealand and I got to collect some data for her last year. But citizen science, you can also collect ideas and opinions. You know, there's obviously not as much. It's not usually done. But combine that with the idea of getting kids ideas. And there's a great citizen science platform called Anic Data. It's one of those. Nice. It's one of those tools. It's almost like from the old and older internet, you know, where it's free. Yeah, it's fairly simple, but it does everything that's needed. It's very open, but plenty of, I guess, sort of options and plenty that you can do with it when you sort of dive into it. So yeah, the first part of first kids in space is it is. We've still got it running and it's open. It's just you had two hour little page there and you can start answering. The first question is, yep, what was, what first got you interested in space? And you know, it's anonymous. You don't even have to add your location or anything like that. But asking about that and just kids ideas. And we're talking about kids. I'm talking, I'd love it if you had a parent who was able to help maybe from age four even, but it's probably more age five, six realistically and up to, yeah, only about age 12. So that earlier kind of phase. Really young? Yeah, we've had students from all over the world, quite a cohort from Sri Lanka. Because there's a great ecological astronomy group there that I've got to talk to. And yeah, kids from all over the world. And, you know, we have had, there was one astronaut that I got to talk to to add his idea. And Dr. Mikaela has put hers in. So we'll get a few select industry, you know, great industry people. But primarily the idea is collecting those kids ideas. And it's just, it's just very raw. You know, would it say any favorites from those ideas? Because at that age, the ideas are probably my favorite one to be honest is again, a little bit kind of, yeah, you know, cutesy, I guess stereotypical, but it's just the kid whose dad took him outside to look at the stars regularly, you know, and map out constellations and stuff. And yeah, that's probably my favorite one. There aren't actual lines in the sky. You have to use your imagination for that. That's the one I had to tell my daughter. You just wear the lines. You have to think about this. Oh, great. Sounds like you've done that exact thing as well then with your daughter. Well, she, me being very, you know, doing the job that I do and both my husband and I are both very in the sciences and just on a personal level and also professionally, it's our daughter. It's almost inevitable that she's surrounded by this. But I know in many cases for outreach programs like what you working on, it's kids like my daughter are like, it's like they're all set. It's the kids where they maybe don't have parents who are as immersed in the sciences that we really also need to reach out to. And I love programs like what you're working on because it gives those kids a place and hear their feedback at that age. That's really fascinating. I love that. Yeah. We'll be right back. And then we're also been asking them as part of that, what would you take to space? There's a little bit of looking back, you know, where did you first get your interest, etc. But then it's, yeah, what would you take? You know, obviously it's got to be sort of small. And I mean, that's fascinating to ask someone like, like, you know, a national who actually did, you know, has taken stuff to space. But yeah, asking kid, yeah, what would you take? And it really kind of strikes. Okay, we're talking about aerospace and space and, you know, sort of pointing towards a career in that. But what's the little human corner of that that you're going to bring? And some kids will say something practical, you know, toothbrush or pocket knife or, you know, those kind of practical things. And that reveals a little bit about them, you know, maybe they're a bit more mission focused, organized type. But a lot of people, you know, say a photograph or some music or, you know, things that are a little bit more, you know, you might say entertainment based, but it's also, no, that's actually a need as well. You know, you're going to need to, whether it's connection back to family or, you know, downtime, relaxing time or whatever. So yeah, it's all, it's all fascinating. And in a sense, yeah, it is all data, you know, and once we get a bigger collection of sort of people having kids having put their ideas in, we'll have quite an interesting set of, you know, opinions, et cetera, that we'll, you know, I'll do a little bit more with just, just be fascinating to see if there's what's common in some of the, yeah, the inputs, et cetera. But yeah, in general, yeah, that's where that's where that first kids in space started. And then I wanted to get put them sort of as a follow up, capture some of the best ones. Sure. And so we put them on the first kids in space website, some of the, some of the comments, et cetera, but also wanted, okay, so those kids at that sort of special point, how can we best encourage them? And that's where the first kids in space book came along and always wanted to put together a book to kind of capture what like kids at that come in that kind of thing. And what, like, what would they need to know to go to space? By which I mean to continue sparking that interest and to encourage that interest. So the book cover will say, yeah, everything, you know, a young explorer needs to know to go to space. I guess really, for me, that's code for what do they need to keep being inspired and to keep pushing them towards, you know, that area. I think I've sort of said it already, but I just sort of want to reiterate, I think it's so wonderful that this project in reaching kids at that age, I think many kids already self-select out. The imagination is so huge at that age. But some kids just go, well, that's not for me. And they don't pick up those books in the library. But it's so nice to ask them these questions and to involve them, because often that's the first thing we do with children at that age is we don't ask them these questions. So yeah, having them actually be heard, I just, that's, my kid just got home from school about 15 minutes before I started talking to you. So I'm thinking about this very directly. And I'm also thinking when I'm done speaking with you, I'm going to be asking her these questions. I'm so fascinated. Excellent. Wonderful. Yeah, wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And you really touched on the important point there, which, you know, again, in education, you know, anyone who's been a kid in school, but also every teacher has to admit that we do, you know, we spend a lot of our time just talking at kids. And it's always been very important to me. And this is a little bit bringing that humanity side in that it's just the idea of, no, we need, it needs to be both ways. We need like your opinions coming in, you know, and so yeah, that's, you know, we made that definitely a big section of the book as well, that show your reading and absorbing, you know, information that someone else has chosen as being important and put in the book. But here's the part where we encourage you and remind you to put in your ideas as well. And honestly, yeah. The thing that I love about this being a data, but that it's also collecting all these data points is as we think about so many organizations, so many nations sending humans into space long term, for long term, you know, whether soon or sometime in the future, you know, we need to bring all of our humanity with us and, you know, human beings will need to bring things that connect them with joy on multi month journeys. And to me, what better than asking a child because there's so much more close to that than adults often are. So it's like, I could see this helping adult astronauts, honestly. Really, I think it's such a fascinating project. I know that might sound a little woo-woo, but I really think it's kids can teach us so much. And now I feel like I'm going to full mom mode, so I'll stop. I think you're right. I think you're right. It's a very, yeah, a very valid kind of area. Yeah, for sure. In some of my face-to-face workshops that I've run, we go as far as taking along a little cardboard box. And, you know, saying, yep, here is the, this is the space. And sometimes students will be for the workshop they know about it and they'll actually bring real objects along from their home. So they'll bring that collapsible toothbrush or, you know, they'll bring that little mini photo or whatever it is. They'll bring those things. We will put them in an actual box. The boxes go in a storage kind of container. It's part of the sort of role play in the workshop. And then during the workshop, we'll at various points, we'll randomly pull one of those boxes out. And the students can explain why they chose that particular thing. And was it a need for the mission or was it a want, you know, that sort of explains more that sort of thing. Yeah. But no, I think that's a great insight, Maria, that, yeah, we've got plenty we can learn from the young kids. They're sort of, you know, little innocent ideas are probably revealing some aspects that maybe get missed by the adults in the bigger side of planning space missions. I guess from the mouth of babes is sort of, I guess what I was kidding, all right? So why don't we talk a little bit about your the edgy knots space education community. So this is, I mean, because you're working on a whole lot of things. So this is another aspect of something that you're working on. So tell me a bit about this. I guess so going beyond the other project of putting first kids in space together is that acknowledgement that, yeah, there's so many other great projects and people doing things. And, you know, on my site, yep, you can go and download the book for free and access, you know, go to the the citizen science and all those things. But I wanted it to be a place where also we can highlight some of those other great projects. So I mentioned Mark Wagner before we've got, you know, he's courses there and here's some amazing stuff for teachers and parents and adults who who maybe even, you know, if you have a different day job at your love space, you can do much course and the tour that he does. And put Dr. Mikaela Masaleta, her work is on there. You can access as well. It's amazing program at Steam for Space where they will send out mission patches to, you know, community groups and schools to spark discussion. And I really love that one because it's also very much that combination of humanities and space. It's the stories behind mission patches. And there's always, you would notice like there's always that, like why did they choose those, you know, those little elements to go. I love, I love speaking to the, I've spoken to a few artists who do this and it's as an artist also, I just, I love that because it's, there's so much thought and deliberation that goes into this process. And it's still the hand of the artist, but the designs are so, so much more intricate than I think people realize it is really fascinating. Yeah, a lot of hidden meaning. But amazing way to appeal to maybe not your traditional STEM kids and, you know, those kids who are maybe more, yeah, they're interested in story or art or design. They wouldn't necessarily see themselves with a career in the space industry. Yeah, that's a program where it might spark something for those kids with a connection from those, when those mission patches arrive and they get to design their own as well and kind of go from there. So, yeah, that's the idea of the Agenaut community. That's just a way, I guess, to share and link with some of these other great projects that are happening. And then, yeah, as I can, I'll add more in there too. [Music] That's it for T-Minus Deep Space brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Trey Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Iban. Peter Kilpey is our publisher, and I'm your host, Maria Varmazes. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. [Music] (gentle music) [BLANK_AUDIO]
