When we think of the future capabilities of the space industry, in space servicing assembly and manufacturing, otherwise known as ISAM, is poised to make what was once thought to be impossible in space a reality. So how is the United States preparing the future workforce for what's coming? Well, cosmic is leading the way. [Music] Welcome to T-Minus Deep Space from N2K Networks. I'm Maria Varmazis. The consortium for space mobility and ISAM capabilities, otherwise known as COSMIC, is a nationwide coalition working to invigorate a domestic ISAM capability. COSMIC has just wrapped up the first COSMIC capstone challenge, otherwise known as the C3. And I spoke to Sita Raghavan and Joy Heng, who walked me through the C3 and the plans for its development. Hello everyone, I'm Sita Raghavan. So I'm actually a professor of aerospace engineering from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. And my areas of research are in materials and extreme environments, mechanics and materials in extreme environments, looking at space, hypersonics and engines and everything that's really talk on material. And so I do research and I also take care of a group of students, run a lab, come up with great ideas and I'm serving as the academic caucus chair of COSMIC. So that's a part of the service I do to engage with the community in areas that are up and coming in areas of research that I'm interested in. Awesome, and we will, I can't wait to hear more about all of that after Joy does his intro. So Joy, without further ado, please tell me about yourself. Hi, my name is Joy Heng. and I'm a graduate of the University of Maryland, so, Sita, I'm going to go back to you, if you can sort of, from your viewpoint, from where you stand, how is cosmic going? What has been the progress in the last year? What have you been seeing? Well, I'm really excited about cosmic, because first of all, it addresses something, and a really growing area, industry, focus. I mean, it is something that's up and coming, and in a short time of one and a half years or so, we've got together a group of people who have been working for many years on topics that are all relevant to ISAM, and that's in Space Servicing Assembly and Manufacturing, right? And these people have been working individually on various areas, and because ISAM is so multidisciplinary, imagine having this disparate group of people working in areas. Cosmic is really what glues us together, and in this short time of one and a half years, we've managed to get a whole bunch of people coming together, working on areas of research, product development, workforce development, you name it, and we've started thinking about all of that, and that's really important right now, because we are in the stage of building up this whole concept of ISAM and all that's needed for it, standardization, what's needed for students to learn to be able to contribute to ISAM. So these are things that we need to start building from scratch, and bringing the right people together is what Cosmic has done, so I'm pretty excited that we've managed to accomplish that in such a short time to get everybody together, but we've got a long way to go in terms of the amount of what's needed right now to get ISAM off the ground, and I think we've got the energy and excitement to do it. That is a very exciting development, and also, I mean, honestly, ISAM itself is such a fascinating field, and being in academia at this time where, as you said, we're trying to figure out what kinds of programs are needed to support this fast-growing new frontier, are we at the point where we have even the beginnings of frameworks, like where are the conversations in academia right now? Can you give me sort of, if I was a fly on the wall, what would be happening? Well, I could add to that. I think in academia right now, definitely there are, there's an existing history of a lot of background and courses that have been supporting what needs to go into ISAM, but we need more targeted topics and focused areas that just address the ISAM needs, and sort of bringing that together so that it's going to be able to train a student who's able to contribute to all aspects of ISAM. And when I said multi-disciplinary, I'm talking automation, robotics, materials, manufacturing, you name it, you know, it's physics, it's science, it's engineering, all of it comes together. So, you know, all of these are pieces all over the place and getting course content and getting the people in the room who know what the course content is that would help this, you know, this focus area grow. That's, I think, a big deal, and that's what academia is trying to address right now. And, you know, the way we're doing it, of course, individual institutions are starting to see, well, here's how we can contribute. We're not talking about these expertise, and here's what we can do in terms of course content, but really we need an overall strategy for the nation so that we are really addressing all aspects of ISAM and that we are not missing some focus area, some workforce area that, you know, falls behind because without each one of that piece, every piece is important to get that successful mission for ISAM going. The Council Capstone Challenge was really designed, you know, my colleague with the workforce development, Jacob Rowe, the past two years have been leading this concept called the Oral Manufacturing Initiative. And so we had, there had been more ad hoc, but really trying to engage students on, you know, sort of this, you know, high level, payload concept designed to figure out, you know, hey, you're a student, you haven't been in the industry for 10, 15 years, you know, what are ideas you have without, you know, you don't have the concept of limitations right now, right? So what, from a peer function and utility standpoint, what can you think of, right? And so, you know, specifically with C3 this year, kind of taking Jacob's program and putting it under the Cosmic Banner, we really gave students an open-ended prompt, you know, just designed some sort of payload to be hosted about, a small satellite bus, you know, try to do three or more operations autonomously. But besides that, you know, we can say, you know, try to support, you know, ISAM. It doesn't have to be just servicing or just assembly or just manufacturing, you know, it can be whatever you want to do, right? And so, you know, like Sita's saying, it's not just targeted for, you know, aeronautical or astronomical students, but it's also targeted at mechanical engineers, or electrical engineers, or computer engineers that are working on vision systems, things like that, right? So, you know, just add on what Sita's saying, it's a multidisciplinary problem, and we're trying to target it from those different angles, right? And doing that by giving an open prompt this year and then next year dividing the C3 challenge into four unique prompts focused on over-manufacturing, assembly, lunar operations, orbital servicing, as well as another kind of more in, like, on-service assembly system, robotic assembly. And so, you know, by doing that, we're directly engaging with, you know, what's Sita's saying as well, engaging with industry and academia, you know, specifically, you know, rather than just hosting it on an example payload bus, we're actually working with David Barnhart of USC, University of Southern California, who also runs a company called Arcusys. And so, we're actually working with them to get, you know, interface control documents so that we can send, you know, actual technical specifications to the students, give them CAD renderings so they can actually see, "Hey, here's directly what you're mounting on to. How can you fit within this volume? How can you meet the power requirements here?" But still giving them the flexibility to design from there, right? But just saying, like, "Hey, here's your baseline. You know, go off, have some crazy fun ideas," things like that. I was just going to say, the multidisciplinary angle that you both have mentioned, it also really aligns well with what we're hearing from the industry about how much we need these different approaches, and we need to be thinking about application outside of sort of the standard silos and breaking out of those silos entirely. So, go ahead, Sita. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, yeah, I wanted to say Joey's and Joey and Jacob have done this immense effort. And I think one thing that's, like, you know, we gotta realize is that students out there, they don't even know what ISAM is. And all of us professors are going to talk about, you know, these multidisciplinary areas, and it kind of goes over the top of everyone's head. But, you know, that challenge, it doesn't. You know, you can take anyone from high school, and they now know exactly what ISAM is, and you can't get people interested in doing the courses for it or thinking of a career in it if they don't know what it is that they're going to get into. So, I think just the knowledge of what ISAM is and getting that across in simple ways, just through this project and this hands-on effort just gave everyone involved an idea of this could be something I want to be part of as part of my career. Yeah, and to add onto that, I mean, some of the ideas we're seeing here are, you know, they're beautiful in their simplicity, right? Like, you obviously have crazy, wild out there ideas that may take many years to develop, but you also have-- I would hope so. Right? But you also have these more near-term ideas where it's like, oh, I didn't think of that, right? Like, the winning team from Cal State LA, Spacebender, they, you know, it was literally just bending wire in space. You know, it was very simple. You know, you don't have to focus on any complex welding or how do you deal with, you know, metallic powders in space or anything. It's literally, hey, if we can get this filament up there, how can we just bend a structure into space? You don't have to worry about the launch environment. You don't have to worry about launch loads. And so, you know, the source of ideas where, you know, students come in with no background, you know, on how a notional space mission works, and they say, oh, yeah, this could work. It's pretty simple. It's a small payload, whatever. And then looking at those ideas and figuring out, hey, how can we take this concept and connect you with, you know, people connect, you know, the big thing about the program is we connect each student team with a mentor from industry from our government or academia. Yeah. That is directly part of Cosmic. So, you know, they're meeting with these mentors every week or two. And so, you get these ideas where, you know, depending on a mentor's expertise, they kind of, you know, can push or guide the students different ways. But you get, you know, a lot of really creative ideas, really, really fun, exciting ideas. And then you get ideas that, you know, are just almost a genius and their simplicity and, you know, more from an application standpoint are really great. [ Music ] We will be right back. [ Music ] Yeah, I was going to ask if you all had any favorites from what you saw. The C3 just happened, didn't it? So, this is fresh in both of your minds. I would love to hear about, because you just mentioned the Bender one just made me think of Futurama. So, I'm just, that's where my head's at right now. But that's really cool. I love that idea. And I know there were a lot of really fascinating ideas. And I'd love if you, if there are any other favorites that you have, if you want to walk me through any of those, that'd be great. Yeah, I mean, you know, a lot of different unique ideas, obviously, you know, a lot of like, over-the-breed missions, as you see it typically. But I think, you know, Sita, if you want to talk about some of, like, the high school teams that you were supporting, I think that was another spot where you're seeing, you know, maybe not as much, as much analysis behind it, but you're seeing these really creative, like, rover concepts and things like that. If you want to speak to what Shasta was up to. Yeah, I think, I think for me, it was like just, you know, I managed to sit in on Shasta's presentations for, for, yeah, ISM projects. And I think the biggest thing for me is I loved all the ideas, you know, but what I really enjoyed was just seeing how they, you know, they, they're all energized by these ideas, right? And then they start troubleshooting and they think about all that could go wrong. And so I think that whole process of, of, of thinking through, and every team had that. So I'm just excited about all of their projects. And it's, it's like Joey said as well, that the ideas are sometimes so simple. And, you know, it tends to be that because we, we know what the problems are or what the environment can create. We tend to limit ourselves sometimes and just being, just being open, like those students, they're not like, you know, they're concerned about some of these things. And it's necessary to think out of the box like that and help us as well. So I really enjoyed all of their, their topics. So you worked with Shasta High School. Was that in California? Is that, is that one of the high schools you worked with? Oh, well, I managed to listen to some of their projects. So, yeah. And, you know, we have the, in the academic caucus, the academia caucus, we have representatives from different universities, colleges, and high schools and Shasta is one of them. And Brian, who's the teacher of the, and in charge of the high school students over there has been really a great mentor to his students. And you can see that, you know, they, they, they all kind of start to realize, you know, what, like whatever they're doing is really important. People want the answers, you know? So, yeah. Yeah. So we get, we get, we get to be part of that. She helps set things up so that we can listen to the students and they get to, you know, get in touch with industry and, and as well as people like me in academia and just seeing external people look at their ideas and give them feedback and are excited about that. That really brings up the excitement levels too. Yeah. Brett Barnes and Brian Griggsby from Shasta High School have done just a phenomenal job, you know, it's not just concept development. You know, we gave the option for teams depending on, you know, to be flexible with program requirements. You know, we said, hey, if you want to build a prototype, go for it. And it was actually, you know, these students are like welding in high school. They're actually like building like metal prototypes that you're seeing. So that, that was really exciting. Wow. And just something engagement we saw even in just this first year was, was fantastic. Professor Sarah Lego from Penn State. We had spoken with her last spring and said, Hey, you know, we're thinking about doing this. We gave her our draft material. She was like, Hey, I have this, you know, quick turn summer program. We'll see if the students like it. We'll kind of test it out here. And then she ended up signing up 10 teams. It was like 66 students, I think, all from Penn State. So, you know, we had this final showcase last month, you know, we gave to in person location options. So if you're kind of more in Western US, you could come down to LA, the aerospace corporation, you know, presented person, but then also get lab tours and see what we're up to. And then for the students, you know, like the Penn State teams, for example, they drove out to NASA Goddard in Maryland. And, you know, got to present there, but they also, you know, got to tour the facilities and see, you know, real hardware in real space labs. So it was really exciting. That is so cool. I, my mind's just a little blown thinking that we have high school students working on ISAM projects. That is a genuinely just really impressive and speaks so well to how much academia, the industry, the space community knows that this is really where we need to be building workforce expertise and certainly letting younger people understand like this is a really important area where they can really move the needle very quickly is fascinating. Joy, you mentioned that there's already planning for next year and then some changes of foot, some really exciting developments. I think you mentioned a few of them, but can you just maybe go over them for me just so I can understand what we're looking forward for next year? Yeah. So next year we're trying to really expand in terms of numbers, obviously, you know, we had over 200 students. We had, you know, between like 230, 240 total students. And, you know, we're really, really climbing and growing. We're, you know, talking about universities right now, getting feedback from the mentors, getting feedback from, you know, the judges that served in our competition, as well as the advisors, you know, figuring out what we're doing and what we didn't. And so, you know, part of that is we're really looking at adopting more of a almost like champion type system where, you know, we have four tracks, you know, so you have over manufacturing assembly, you have kind of a lunar oriented service operations, you have over services, so kind of like a refueling type mission. And then you have an actual like in space, you know, robotic assembly. And so for each of these we're working with industry and government partners to get, you know, sort of a main point person to run each one of these. So, you know, at our conference event next month, Los Angeles, you know, we're having each of these champions kind of go up and speak about, you know, the importance of each of these topics, why we're dividing up into four tracks. And then, you know, if you're a student next year, you know, you can look and say, oh, you know, which one of these four looks most interesting to me, which one's most applicable to the program? And, you know, maybe they're choosing that, maybe the professors choosing that, you know, we're willing to kind of let them sort it out too, you know, we want to just maintain that flexibility. And then planning on giving more guidance into, hey, you know, if you have a bigger team, maybe this challenge is a little harder, right? Like maybe doing full scale lunar operations, designing a rover, you know, designing, you know, sort of a connoisseur, what are you trying to accomplish? Maybe that's a bit larger scale. And maybe, you know, doing more of just like a simple payload design that may be a little smaller scale, right? So we want to be flexible in terms of, you know, maybe a larger university, maybe they have funding to build prototype, maybe small universities, they don't, right? So it's, we're not trying to lock any students into any one path, but giving them the option to say, hey, if your expertise is, you know, and envision systems of expertise is in propulsion, you know, there's different areas you can go into that make sense. And again, you know, giving, giving the advisors, giving the professors, you know, some, some flexibilities that they can, you know, meet with their, you know, meet with their department and say, hey, here's where we want to go and not lock them into, you know, one path, but give them those options. Sita and Joey, I just want to make sure I give you both an opportunity to share any last thoughts with the audience before we close out today. Why don't we go Sita and Joey in that order? If there are any thoughts you want to share before we head out? Yeah, I do want to say that, you know, Cosmic is still growing and we do need more academic, you know, participants. So we want to kind of make sure that everyone out there knows that this is a place where you can really contribute. And there are so many, I mean, this is a, this is a field that is growing so rapidly. It really is a community of people coming together that it's so, it's so, so many different ideas with so many different ideas. And we are all open to these ideas. So, you know, the, the, there is in one area, again, it's multidisciplinary. We're talking about damage, radiation damage, materials, automation, robotics, whatever your interest is, you're going to be able to find something that you know about that's going to be relevant to ISEM. So consider thinking about putting your group together and looking at the challenges or getting your, if your student gets your faculty involved, if your faculty gets your students involved and be part of this exciting group. And then, yeah, for me, I think, you know, just like Cether was saying, you know, it's only the first year we've been doing this. We've seen a lot of growth, but you know, this is by no means a finished product. So, you know, looking for feedback on C3, looking for more teams if you're part of a student club or part of a university or have colleagues at working at a university, you know, you can go to CosmicSpace.org/C3. You can find all of our information there, you know, provide feedback and find emails or reach out to myself or Jacob Brown, the Workforce Development Co-lead. And yeah, I mean, I think the future is bright. The first year was very successful, but definitely still learning and growing. So thank you. So great. Joey and Cether, thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you. That's it for Team Ina's Deep Space, brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We would love to know what you think of this podcast. You can email us at space@n2k.com or submit the survey in the show notes. Your feedback ensures we deliver the information that keeps you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. N2K Senior Producer is Alice Carruth. Our producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliot Peltzman and Tre Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. Peter Kilpe is our publisher, and I'm your host, Maria Varmazis. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. [MUSIC PLAYING]
