Many NASA astronauts talk about the moment that they decided that they wanted to pursue their careers in space. The Apollo 11 lunar landing and subsequent missions are often credited for inspiring the next generation of explorers, but what is inspiring this generation to go to the moon and beyond? [Music] This is Team Miners Deep Space, I'm Alice Carruth. Our guest today is a retired US Navy captain, an engineer, a former helicopter pilot and a NASA astronaut. Wendy Lawrence is working to inspire the next generation of the space workforce. My name is Wendy Lawrence. I am a former NASA astronaut and retired captain in the United States Navy. I had the privilege of growing up during the Apollo program, so when you talk to astronauts who are around my age, our answer is pretty simple. It was all about Apollo. It was absolutely incredible to be able to lie on the floor in front of, I'm pretty sure, our black and white television at home. For me, it was Apollo 11 watching Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin take those very historic first steps. I like to say to kids, even now, I cannot tell you what it was about watching them. I was mesmerized. Eyes glued to the screen. And I had just turned 10 years old. I was growing up in Southern California, pretty much in a single parent household because my father was a prisoner of war over in the Hanoi Hilton. But I just remember watching them thinking, that's it, that's what I want to do when I grow up. I want to be an astronaut. I want to fly in space. No, I didn't see anybody who looked like me doing that. But about that same time, with my older brother, I was watching every episode of the first Star Trek. So you did see people who looked like you zipping throughout the universe, and that was pretty inspiring as well. But that became the childhood dream. That was the dream that possessed me. I followed family tradition in that my mother's father went to Naval Academy, became a Naval Aviator. My dad went to Naval Academy, became a Naval Aviator. So I had an opportunity to join the second class of women to attend the United States Naval Academy. Studied engineering did break family tradition a little bit because I decided I wanted to fly helicopters instead of fixed wing planes. So I was a Navy helicopter pilot for a while. The Navy sent me to MIT and Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution to get my master's degree. And after a while, I thought maybe I had enough qualifications that NASA might be interested in me. And so I submitted my application. I like to also tell kids that if you want to be an astronaut, it's like any other job. You have to let NASA know that, which means you have to apply. And I got selected in the astronaut class of 1992 and had an opportunity to fly onboard a space shuttle for four missions. You glossed over all of that really quickly because I feel like there's so much more to it. I mean, your father being in a prisoner of war must have been quite an incredible thing to have to overcome as a child to deal with that. And I understand your father was somehow involved with Jung Len and the balance ship. Yeah, I kind of missed glossed over that fact too. So my father went through flight training in the early 1950s and that was right around the time that the branches of aviation and the military were transitioning to jet aircraft. So my father learned how to fly jets. This first squadron that he was assigned to was out in the San Francisco Bay area. And he's a new pilot. He's young. He's very inexperienced. And so typically you get paired with somebody who's far more experienced, who's been flying for a while. And you become that person's wingman. So my father happened to be Alan Shepard's wingman. Wow. Then after he finishes that tour and now kind of towards the mid 1950s, he gets sent to test pilot school at the Naval Air Station in Patuxent River, Maryland. And down the street live John Glenn and his kids. I wasn't born yet, but my older brother and sister used to play with the Glenn kids. So I do think that was incredibly helpful when I got into my later years at high school and I'm trying to think how do I make this dream come true? Because I still very much want to be an astronaut one day. My dad could basically say, well, here's what people I know did. You know, they all finished high school. They went to college. They study engineering or a science major. Of course, most of his friends had then gone into the military and become pilots. And so that was the path I charted for myself. What an amazing experience to have had that kind of exposure as a child and know that it was within your reach because a lot of people feel like space in particular is well beyond their reach. They don't know people that are in the industry. They don't know how to even get started. So that's got to be quite a helpful start for somebody like you that wanted to go into that industry. Absolutely, because these were family friends who were up orbiting the planet. So not anybody high and mad because I was too young, but people that were talked about in my household. And I bet your father must have been quite a big influence on you as well. You know, you mentioned that you followed his footsteps to be an ABA to yourself. I'm assuming he came back from Hanoi. Yes, he did. Yes. In fact, he came back and then my last three years at the United States Naval Academy, he was the superintendent there. So imagine going to college with your dad as the president of the school that you're attending. Left some big footsteps, choose to fill, but he was also a tremendous role model and example as well. So I benefited greatly from that. That's amazing. You are so fortunate and what a wonderful thing. And then you glossed over the fact that you had four flights on the Space Shuttle program. Would you I'd love for you to tell me a little bit more about those flights. So Space Shuttle missions by definition were what we call shorter duration, typically two weeks or so. And each mission had major objectives that you needed to accomplish. So on my first mission, which was on board Endeavour, we were an astronomy mission. We had three specialized telescopes out in the payload bay for us to do astronomy and the ultraviolet part of the electromagnetic spectrum. So we operated the telescopes 24 hours a day. We split the crew into two shifts to do that. I was the flight engineer on that mission. So for me, that also meant I got to be the on-air pilot for my shift. So it was my responsibility to input all the maneuvers into the onboard computers that then precisely positioned the orbiters. So the other two people in my shift could then operate the telescopes to do our observations. So that was a lot of fun. I had a lot of chance opportunities just to sit up on the flight deck and look out the window and watch the world go by. Then my next three missions went to space stations and they were incredibly busy. My middle two missions went to the Russian Space Station Mir when it was on orbit. That was part of what we called the Shuttle Mir program or Phase 1. Basically, it was a preparatory program for the International Space Station program. So it gave NASA an opportunity to start working with the Russian Space Agency in preparation for ISS operations. And then my last mission, STS-114 on discovery, was the first flight after the Columbia accident. So more than anything, we were a test flight, first returned to flight mission. But we also went up to the International Space Station to do three spacewalks while we were there to repair some equipment. We also delivered a lot of supplies to the station as well. Yes, I remember Columbia very well. I mean, it felt like anybody of a certain age certainly remembers watching that and being absolutely shocked. It must have been a really difficult time to be an astronaut and to put yourself forward for being that next mission going up. Yes, that mission was very different than my previous three. And that for much of our training flow, we didn't know exactly what we were going to do to implement the recommendations from the accident investigation board. So it was kind of interesting to work in parallel with people in the shuttle program, the engineers, to try and figure out how are we going to do external inspection. Once we're up in space, how do we look at the entire outside of the orbiter to inspect for any damage? Is that even possible or do we have to become incredibly creative and figure out a couple different ways to do that? Which is ultimately we had a couple of different ways that we did the inspection. How do we do repair? That's never been done before either. So it was a fascinating training flow from that regard in that we're doing things for the very first time. It was challenging in that much of the training flow were like, how are we going to do this? But I don't know, we're not there yet. So the very last part of the training flow became very, very busy as we finally figured things out and we had to practice the procedures. Yeah, but I mean, space is always about learning. I'm sure it must have been continuously that way when you approached it. Yes. Well, that's what I say to kids. You know, really the challenging part of being an astronaut is everything you have to learn and remember in order to do your job. So you are a student. You are very, very much a student. Nobody shows up having been an astronaut before. So, you know, I like to jokingly call it astronaut school, but you know, I emphasize to the kids just like you're in school right now. I had to go to astronaut school. I had to sit in class. I had instructors. Our tests basically are in the simulator, but we still had examinations that we had to complete, so to speak. We'll be right back. You talk a lot about talking to students and I know you do a ton of STEM outreach. What possessed you to think, "Well, now I'm no longer working for the astronaut corps and I'm now retired from the Navy. I want to do STEM outreach"? Well, I think part of it was due to the fact that my mother for 40 years was involved in early childhood education. She ran her own preschool for many, many years. And so my mother just has this amazing gift to keep three and four year olds absolutely mesmerized as she tells a story. So that was a huge influence. Whenever I would visit her, usually I would end up at the nursery school. My role typically was snacks and nap times, but I can see her impact and influence on young kids. But I think also looking back at growing up in Southern California in the mid to late 1960s during the height of the Vietnam War with protests going on, there are many different ways that my life could have ended up in sixth grade. I remember one of my sixth grade classmates was removed from class because he was taking drugs. So the drug influence was pretty strong. It could have just gone down to the beach and been a beach bomb, but I was possessed by this dream. So I understand the power of having a dream and how it can push you and propel you forward in life. And so that's a message that I want to share with kids. Like, you owe it to yourself to try. If there's something you're interested in doing, you don't know whether you can make this dream come true until you take the very first step. And it may not work out for you, but I can also tell you that the journey is very enjoyable. It is not a waste of your time. You're going to learn a lot along the way. You're going to get to do some interesting things. And you do not want to get 10 to 15 years down the road and look back and go, "If only. If only I had tried." No, they don't have the perspective at that young age to know that regret is a very powerful emotion. And it's one that you don't necessarily want to live with. And so that's the message that I pass on to them. You owe it to yourself to try. Absolutely. And have passion. It sounds like you really instill that into a lot of the student outreach you do. Now, I know you do presentations at JSC, like a lot of other former NASA astronauts, but you're involved with two outreach programs that I am very passionate about. The Challenger Learning Center and Higher Orbits. Before we get into the Higher Orbits one, I'd love to hear about what drew you to the Challenger Learning Center and what involvement you have in that program. Well, I joined the Board for the Challenger Learning Center last year at the request of another former NASA astronaut who had been on the board for quite a while. I think in particular, having been on a crew following a major accident, you understand the impact on the families and how devastating it is to them. So I have great admiration for the Challenger families and how they turned a very, very difficult situation into something that's been quite powerful and quite impactful. So when Bill Reedy, former astronaut, reached out to me and said, "Would you be interested in joining the board?" Of course I said yes. And so I'm still learning about the mission, but it's been very enjoyable thus far. It's hard to believe that next year marks 40 years since the anniversary, so much of the board work right now is focused on celebrating 40 years of Challenger Centers and highlighting that accomplishment and looking forward to the next 40 years for Challenger Learning Centers. We're very lucky in my community to have a Challenger Learning Center. I know there's only about 45 of them or something like that left around the world, and it has an incredible impact on the students around this area. So thank you from the bottom of my heart that you've been involved in that. And the other STEM program that I mentioned is Hyrule Bits, and hopefully you and I are going to be working together on a go for launch later this year. What am I in for? Because I know a little bit about Hyrule Bits. I've known of them for many years, but this is going to be my first time being part of that. You're in for a couple of very long days, but you will be amazed at what the students are able to come up with in just those two days. Michelle Lucas does just an amazing program, an amazing job of implementing this program. And it's not just a workshop in terms of kids being involved in STEM. It's much more complete than that. She makes them get up and speak in front of groups. And so morning at day one, you have kids that are just terrified about speaking in public. By the end of day two, as they're presenting their idea for an experiment to fly the space station, they're much more articulate, they're much more confident. And so it's amazing to see that transformation in just, you know, a couple of days. But to me, what Michelle's doing is what STEM education should be. And I like to make this point also to the kids is like, yeah, we have you sit in classrooms, but there's a purpose behind that. We have got to give you a foundation of knowledge. And it takes time to build that foundation. But once you get to the point, that point, you then have the opportunity to apply what you have been learning. And that's what her workshop does. It gives these kids an opportunity to apply what they've been learning in the classroom. Again, try and come up with an idea of something that could be done on board the International Space Station in their experiment for 30 days. So what an incredible opportunity for a kid is like, hey, you come up with a winning idea. You get to go to the launch, you get to see your experiment go up to space, you get to collect data, analyze it. This is incredibly unique. I hope you appreciate it. But again, this is STEM education at its best. Apply what you learn, be immersed in it. And the other tremendous benefit, I think, for these kids is I get to make a decision about whether or not they really enjoy doing this sort of work. And so as they finish up their high school years, hopefully their decision is a more informed decision about, hey, I really enjoy that workshop. Trying to come up with, you know, pursue these science concepts or figure out the engineering design behind my experiment. I think I might want to go study engineering or I think I might want to go study a science major. So when I, my dad told me, you want to be an astronaut, you need to be an engineer. I didn't have any concept what an engineer really did. So mine was kind of a blind leap of faith that, oh, I will enjoy this engineering major. Fortunately, I did. But for these kids, now there's gets to be a more informed decision about what they want to do after high school. You've done a lot of quite a few of these, I'm assuming, right now with Michelle. You must have a story of some of the best experiments that people have come up with or even the failed ones. You know, what have you ever seen that moment of the spark igniting in one of the students you've worked with? Oh, yes. And what's interesting is to meet the kids are like, oh, I'm on my fourth go for launch because I had so much fun on the previous three that I wanted to come back. And that's, that just warms your heart because you're like, OK, Michelle, you're making a huge difference in these kids' lives. And then to be able to track what they're doing as they finish up into high school and then go on to college. And one of the go for launches that I did with Michelle in the Kennedy Space Center last summer, I met one of her former go for launch students who was getting ready to graduate from Embry Riddle. And she came down to be a mentor during the workshop. So Michelle stays in touch with these kids. They want to stay in touch with her. She continues to give them opportunities like go to International Space University in Australia for a week, meet kids from around the world, learn about all these amazing science and engineering concepts, go to the AIAAISN conference and stand up on the stage in front of hundreds of people and talk about your experience. And so, yeah, it's it's fun to see how she becomes their space mom. She wears that title proudly in the impact that she's having on their lives. What message would you like to give to people that are listening that maybe are interested in perhaps pursuing careers in space, but don't even know where to start. What would you always tell them? If you're interested, take those first steps. Now that we've been involved in this space for decades, you have a lot of resources to reach out their communities that you can join and be a part of. You can find people on LinkedIn, Instagram, you know, depending on whether you're in high school, or programs like Michelle that you can be a part of college, their internships, but find a way to get that first foot in the door and see whether or not you really like it. That's critically important to just be immersed in it for a bit and say, am I enjoying the people that I'm working with? Do I like the work that I'm doing day in and day out? Do I see myself fitting in here? There are opportunities that I can pursue, but unless you take those first steps, you're never really going to know. But the nice thing is there are a heck of a lot of opportunities. You know, if you live near a Challenger Center, a lot of them are also Science Museum with other programming that's offered. Go take a part of that as well. I'll put in a plug for Space Camp. If you have the resources to go spend a week at Space Camp, Michelle will tell you, that can be a life-changing experience for her. It was absolutely life-changing because as she says, I found my tribe there. And so I'd also say to kids, you've got to find some sort of support system, because it took me 25 years to make the dream of flying in space come true. That is an incredibly long journey. There were lots of ups and downs, and you're not going to be able to do it on your own. So you've got to find a group of people with similar interests who are willing to support you to basically become your cheerleaders and help you continue to put one foot in front of the other as you try to navigate your path. I love that. Persevere. I think that's pretty much what we can come up with from the end of that conversation. Wendy, thank you so much for joining us and telling us about your career and your outreach as well. And thank you for everything you do for the community. Well, Alice, thank you very much for the opportunity. It was great to speak with you. [Music] That's it for Team Miner's Deep Space brought to you by N2K Cyberwire. We'd love to know what you think of this podcast. Your feedback ensures we deliver the insights that keep you a step ahead in the rapidly changing space industry. If you like the show, please share a rating and review in your podcast app. Please also fill out the survey in the show notes or send an email to space@n2k.com. We're proud that N2K Cyberwire is part of the daily routine of the most influential leaders and operators in the public and private sector. From the Fortune 500 to many of the world's preeminent intelligence and law enforcement agencies. N2K helps space and cybersecurity professionals grow, learn and stay informed. As the nexus for discovery and connection, we bring you the people, technology and ideas shaping the future of secure innovation. Learn how at N2K.com. N2K's producer is Liz Stokes. We're mixed by Elliott Peltzman and Tre Hester with original music by Elliot Peltzman. Our executive producer is Jennifer Eiben. Peter Kilpie is our publisher. Our host is Maria Varmazis and I'm senior producer Alice Carruth. Thanks for listening.
